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Subject: China's rise raises Australia war fears (Alarmism or statement of fact?)
Zhang Fei    11/9/2008 9:56:54 PM
(Quote) Australia would need to significantly boost defence spending and expand its armed forces to ensure its security against the likelihood of a rising China challenging the United States, a leading strategic thinker warned yesterday. Speaking to an audience of senior Government officials, defence contractors and lawyers at a forum sponsored by the law firm Deacons, Australian National University strategic studies professor Hugh White said the Rudd Government's forthcoming Defence white paper needed to address fundamental strategic challenges. Professor White said the deep question was how China's economic rise would change the strategic balance in the Asia-Pacific region and it was hard to escape the conclusion that the United States would lose primacy, or that primacy would be contested. ''This has immense implications for Australia,'' Professor White said. ''The eclipse of Western maritime primacy in Asia [will be] a very big event in our national history. ''If United States primacy fades, we will face higher risks of conflict with a major Asian power either in the company of the United States or alone.'' Professor White believes the future strategic environment will require much larger air and naval forces to achieve Australia's maritime denial strategy. Specifically the proposed acquisition of 100 Joint Strike Fighters would not necessarily preserve Australia's ''traditional margin of technological superiority'' over regional airforces. ''Confidence that the Joint Strike Fighters will provide a decisive technological edge is not going to happen,'' he said. Professor White warned Australian air superiority may prove fragile unless significantly more fifth-generation fighters were acquired. He argued the navy could need larger, more capable and expensive surface warships and as many as 12 next-generation submarines would be required to replace the six Collins-class submarines. The problem was larger numbers of expensive weapons platforms would require much higher levels of defence expenditure than Australian Governments had previously authorised. ''There is a deep risk of misalignment between middle power ambitions and expenditure,'' Professor White said. Professor White suggested the global financial crisis would not necessarily have a great effect on long-term defence expenditure, but defence cuts in the United States could pose problems for Australia's acquisition of American defence technology. Moreover, the financial crisis did ''look like another milestone in the loss of US primacy''. Speaking at a land warfare conference in Brisbane yesterday, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon acknowledged that Australia's future strategic environment would sound a constant call for more defence spending. ''This is why I have ordered a savings drive which will hopefully free up $10billion over the next decade for reinvestment in higher priorities'', Mr Fitzgibbon said. ''Of course, the global financial crisis has made this efficiency drive all the more important.'' (Unquote)
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Nan   11/18/2008 7:34:34 AM







A joint basing option with the Indians?  The Japanese?  Joint land fighting exercises between the 3?  China would most certainly move to cut off US naval support for Oz probably by dumping a couple of nukes on Guam while the fleet steams for Oz.












That little puddle called the "Pacific Ocean" is a somewhat challenging bit of geography for any nation to cover with one fleet.




The Indian Ocean?  That should offer a back door sea lane between India and Oz.  The PLAN would have really stretch itself out to make its presence known and I doubt the US is going to move off of Diego.

 
And Oz, Japan, SK and NZ have alot to lose by not building their own system to deal with the PLAN nemesis.


I'm not quite understanding you but I think you are suggesting a way that we could deal with China cutting us off from US supplies. What I was actually suggesting in my original post was that the Pacific Ocean is so huge that the Chinese would have a very difficult time doing that in the first instance. Basically their ships and subs would have to loiter close to our ports and therefore air cover to have a chance of getting merchant shipping before it got lost in the wide blue yonder. That would be virtuallly impossible for thier surface vessels for them unless they had a USN style carrier force. Their subs might fair better but if we could probably provide workable protection for our vessels out that far under an conceivable scenarios.

 
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YelliChink       11/21/2008 10:39:25 AM


As for Indonesia, I reckon with a rejuventated military government they would be natural allies for the Chinese. Without the US in the picture the two of them have the basing to control the South China Sea (with it's oil) along with its entry points. The Indo's might have to trade off some maritime claims but they would have Chinese military support to take resource rich Papua New Guniea, East Timor and push back the Australian/Indonesia seabed boarder (which has loads of oil and gas).


A Chinese-Indonesian alliance? Very unlikely. Those Indonesians blamed on ethnic Chinese every time they screw up their country, and always followed by ethnic riots against Chinese. Chinese there have to abandon their tradition, religion and even names by law.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/22/2008 12:42:20 AM







As for Indonesia, I reckon with a rejuventated military government they would be natural allies for the Chinese. Without the US in the picture the two of them have the basing to control the South China Sea (with it's oil) along with its entry points. The Indo's might have to trade off some maritime claims but they would have Chinese military support to take resource rich Papua New Guniea, East Timor and push back the Australian/Indonesia seabed boarder (which has loads of oil and gas).





A Chinese-Indonesian alliance? Very unlikely. Those Indonesians blamed on ethnic Chinese every time they screw up their country, and always followed by ethnic riots against Chinese. Chinese there have to abandon their tradition, religion and even names by law.

The internal affairs of Indoniesia wouldn't necessarily preclude an international alliance of this nature by a sufficiently pragmatic dictator. After all, the fact that the West hated Communism didn't prevent the alliance with Stalin in WW2. As the saying goes "My enemies enemy is my friend".

 
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Aussiegunneragain       11/22/2008 12:42:22 AM







As for Indonesia, I reckon with a rejuventated military government they would be natural allies for the Chinese. Without the US in the picture the two of them have the basing to control the South China Sea (with it's oil) along with its entry points. The Indo's might have to trade off some maritime claims but they would have Chinese military support to take resource rich Papua New Guniea, East Timor and push back the Australian/Indonesia seabed boarder (which has loads of oil and gas).





A Chinese-Indonesian alliance? Very unlikely. Those Indonesians blamed on ethnic Chinese every time they screw up their country, and always followed by ethnic riots against Chinese. Chinese there have to abandon their tradition, religion and even names by law.

The internal affairs of Indoniesia wouldn't necessarily preclude an international alliance of this nature by a sufficiently pragmatic dictator. After all, the fact that the West hated Communism didn't prevent the alliance with Stalin in WW2. As the saying goes "My enemies enemy is my friend".

 
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Le Zookeeper    The reality for Australia or should I say Australasia   11/22/2008 9:24:48 PM
Folks,
 
Australia was well just like the latest movie. The reality is China has the power to buy Aussie resources, Australia must necessarily come to terms with the darn fact that they cannot be in Asia's neighbourhood and behave like they are are a transient Western abnormality. Just like the lords prayer in Aussie parliament is soon going to be history is any Australian identity with the West. Its even to Australia's benefit. China is not dangerous to Australia. The fact remains that Australia is more Miceonesia,Asia, Polynesia and Indonesia than England over the long run. Get used to it. The latest demographic studies suggest that Australia will be an Asian majority state by 2035 or so. I wouldn't be surprised if Mandarin emerges as Australia's second language by law.
 
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Le Zookeeper    Nannu   11/22/2008 9:32:47 PM

A joint basing option with the Indians?  The Japanese?  Joint land fighting exercises between the 3?  China would most certainly move to cut off US naval support for Oz probably by dumping a couple of nukes on Guam while the fleet steams for Oz.



Over the long run India and China have similar objectives, and Australia thinking that India is a long term ally against China is highly mistaken. Your basic error lies in the fact that Australia is an Asian expansionist zone(not just Chinese). Australia has resources but Aisa has none, and tht applies to India and China. In fact India's Uranium requirements are more stressfull than China's. Over the sands of time I see no option for Australia but to say "Howdy" in Mandarin, Hindi, and Bahasa. Australia's sole supporers USA and UK have no choice either. I give Anglo-Australia 20 more years then its curry chicken and peking duck, no more shrimp on the barbie.
 
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Volkodav       11/22/2008 10:05:22 PM



A joint basing option with the Indians?  The Japanese?  Joint land fighting exercises between the 3?  China would most certainly move to cut off US naval support for Oz probably by dumping a couple of nukes on Guam while the fleet steams for Oz.








Over the long run India and China have similar objectives, and Australia thinking that India is a long term ally against China is highly mistaken. Your basic error lies in the fact that Australia is an Asian expansionist zone(not just Chinese). Australia has resources but Aisa has none, and tht applies to India and China. In fact India's Uranium requirements are more stressfull than China's. Over the sands of time I see no option for Australia but to say "Howdy" in Mandarin, Hindi, and Bahasa. Australia's sole supporers USA and UK have no choice either. I give Anglo-Australia 20 more years then its curry chicken and peking duck, no more shrimp on the barbie.

You just need to watch the Cricket to see what India thinks of Australia!
 
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gf0012-aust       11/22/2008 10:22:58 PM
no more shrimp on the barbie.
it's bad enough that you're a xeonphobic troll - its even more unpalatable when you mangle what you think are australianisms.
 
"shrimp on the barbie" was crafted for the US tourism market as they didn't know what "prawns" were.
 
nobody says "shrimp on the barbie" unless they think the other person is a drongo.
 
guess who's a drongo?

 
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gf0012-aust    FMD   11/22/2008 10:23:54 PM
xenophobic.
 
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DropBear       11/22/2008 11:47:13 PM
What I was actually suggesting in my original post was that the Pacific Ocean is so huge that the Chinese would have a very difficult time doing that in the first instance. Basically their ships and subs would have to loiter close to our ports and therefore air cover to have a chance of getting merchant shipping before it got lost in the wide blue yonder.
 
Not entirely unlocatable in the vast blue yonder. All large merchant ships would have an allocated IMN (some tankers even have it painted on the stern for ID purposes at sea). I have no doubt that a few crafty Chinese Intell types could hack into the known websites and gather data on known locales (within about 600metres or so) of any large civil merchant vessel. It is then just a matter of using some of the freeware tracking software (scary but true!!!) and find said shipping.
 
As they say, you can run but you can't hide
 
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