Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Australia Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Security beneath the waves
Volkodav    10/18/2008 1:11:46 AM
Sounds far fetched but could be done and expanding the size of the FEG could actually help fix the crewing issues by providing a greater critical mass of personnel to improve manning options on and off the subs. Patrick Walters | October 18, 2008 KEVIN Rudd understands one big thing about Australia's future defence: in an age of strategic discord and restless change in Asia, our navy must grow and deliver more strategic weight in the nation's defence. In the Prime Minister's view, this should dictate a larger and more powerful submarine fleet. By 2030, according to many of our top defence experts, evolving regional security trends will mean Australia's relative military power will have declined significantly. In their view, a new generation of more powerful submarines represents the best strategic investment Australia can make to guarantee our long-term security. Rudd has recently become the political champion of a bigger underwater force as the mainstay of a maritime defence system that will eventually include highly capable air-war destroyers as well as the new F-35 joint strikefighter. Rudd sees a larger submarine force as part of an essential maritime shield able to protect Australia's "sea-lines of communication" in a more volatile region. By 2030 East Asia will include some formidable regional naval powers led by China. China's future maritime capability is the principal concern; long-range forecasts show that in two decades its navy will be equipped with powerful nuclear-armed submarines as well as a formidable surface fleet capable of operating at a long range from the Chinese mainland. Our new larger conventional submarines will be extremely versatile, not just as strike platforms but in other specialised roles including intelligence gathering, special forces operations and anti-submarine warfare. But realising the prime ministerial vision for a larger submarine arm is a different matter altogether. Not least because, as events of the past week have rammed home, hard financial choices will have to be made in the Department of Defence during the coming years. The Rudd Government has pledged to maintain a 3 per cent annual real increase in the Defence Department budget. Going to a bigger submarine fleet from 2020 will dictate a lift in defence spending or the cancellation or postponement of some key defence equipment buys. The Royal Australian Navy has six Collins-class boats and an expansion to nine or even 12 next-generation vessels will increase pressure on an already overstretched defence-equipment budget. The lead times for such a complex project are long and Australia's leading submarine experts warn that the Defence Department must accelerate planning if a new class of boats is destined to enter service in the mid-2020s. Well before the finer details of a next-generation build are settled, the Government will have to make threshold choices on where the balance of investment will lie in our maritime defences between surface warships, submarines, and air power. For the PM and his key ministers, including Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon, this aspect of our long-term defence force structure is looming as a critical leadership test. One issue under consideration by defence is whether to accelerate the new submarine project to allow a new class of boats to enter service about 2020. Hugh White, Australian National University professor of strategic studies and Lowy Institute visiting fellow, has been a strong proponent of a considerably larger submarine force. "The key question is will we have enough to give us the strategic weight we need. In order to do that, we need a substantial increase in the size of the fleet," he says. "What we need to do is start getting more submarines before the present Collins class starts to leave service. At the moment there is not money in the defence budget to do that. "I think the most effective thing would be to build six submarines by 2025 before the Collins (is) replaced so that the six replacements become submarines seven to 12. But that would require a very quick decision." A host of complex issues still remain to be sorted out before Australian industry can plan with confidence on the new class of submarine to replace the six Collins boats built in the 1990s. More than three years after the Howard government announced its intention to sell the wholly government-owned ASC, builder of the Collins submarine, its future status remains in limbo. Within the next few weeks Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner will announce long-awaited details of a projected sale of ASC by the end of 2009. The sale conditions are expected to include a mandatory requirement for at least 80per cent Australian ownership as well as the possible retention of a golden share by the Government. But before ASC can be sold, the Government must determine a road map to protect and enhance ASC's existing assets, includi
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2
gf0012-aust       10/18/2008 3:50:30 AM
I think Walters is drawing a long bow...
 
At the risk of being controversial, IMHO ASC with their current execs aren't worth a pinch of schitt.  And as for them holding the knowedge base - they really need to see what the japanese are doing and look at the modified Oyashios before being locally promoted as experts.
 
ASC Execs seem to forget that the capability that swung the boats around was due to 3rd party australian companies and help from the cousins - they did bugger all from a design capability fix issue (in the last 5 years)
 
I'd rather see the americans pick up some control, they could bring some managerial skills to the place.  

 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       10/18/2008 6:01:25 AM

I think Walters is drawing a long bow...
 
LOL!!! These poor bloody journos can't win. When they bag anything Collins they get bagged and when they complement the company who built them they get bagged as well ;-).

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       10/18/2008 8:33:35 AM




I think Walters is drawing a long bow...

 


LOL!!! These poor bloody journos can't win. When they bag anything Collins they get bagged and when they complement the company who built them they get bagged as well ;-).




I've been consistent about my view on ASC management for 11 years.  Collins were turned around by 3rd party players and the cousins - not by some magical sleight of engineering skill on ASC's part.
 
The long hope has always been that the management team there would get shunted so real progress could be made.
 
They've been singularly responsible for failing to secure a number of external contracts as well.
 
OTOH, ASCE were a completely different reputable kettle of fish.
 
Quote    Reply

stingray1003       10/18/2008 5:14:44 PM
Wasnt that the dream, knock off ASC management and keep the ASC engineering and fabrication. The best of both worlds, effective management, US connections and fitting into a bigger picture internationally while keeping aussie engineering and fabrication.
 
 I really hope ASC gets sold to a US company before the next gen subs start construction. Pref in the next 5 years.
 
 Hopefully with 4 x AWD builds, 2 x LHD fitouts, 6-8 new build subs and a frigate contract, maintence contract as well as any possible export deals, that it will happen.
 
Beasley is think is right. I hope labour listens to him a bit so they can learn from past mistakes...
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       10/18/2008 7:38:47 PM

Wasnt that the dream, knock off ASC management and keep the ASC engineering and fabrication. The best of both worlds, effective management, US connections and fitting into a bigger picture internationally while keeping aussie engineering and fabrication.
true, there's nothing wrong with the engineers at the build level - its the Executive who need to look up the dictionary and look at the word "hubris".
 
unfort they think that they're management and design experts.  they should do what NG did, get a reality chek and bench their practices against Lexus (the reference point on build practice and management for NG when building the Virginias)
 
keep the technicals - dump the snr managers - and don't let the Executives near CAD programs and whiteboards. :)
 
 

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       10/18/2008 7:42:33 PM

LOL!!! These poor bloody journos can't win.


I do actually have mates who are journo's.  They're not all the "demons spawn" ;)
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    GF   10/18/2008 8:18:48 PM




LOL!!! These poor bloody journos can't win.





I do actually have mates who are journo's.  They're not all the "demons spawn" ;) 

I was more joking than serious.
In fairness to Walters though I would have to say it is probably beyond your average broadsheet journo to tell which bits of what defence company are good. Its not like they write for specialist publications and their articles should really be considered "conversation starters" rather than the last word.
 
It would be good if he could ask questions like "how are we supposed to crew twelve submarines when we can only crew three now" though...
 


 
 
Quote    Reply

Volkodav       10/18/2008 9:01:26 PM
keep the technicals - dump the snr managers - and don't let the Executives near CAD programs and whiteboards. :)
 
I hear you!
 
Things are changing with retirements among the old guard allowing for positive change.  I wouln't keep all the technicals though, there are quite a few long serving individuals who could be discibed as roadblocks or speed humps.
 
Stove pipes built over 2 decades by despots and empire builders (who often posses little technical skill let alone knowledge) in positions as low as team leader or supervisor, often prevent effective co-operation between talented technical individuals in different departments.  You still tend to find quite a few people in the same roles they have held since joining the company years earlier, not good enough to promote and not bad enough to move or sack.  This can lead to stagnation and an overly conservative approach to change.  To the old guard a cross functional project team is something for managers to worry about as "the chain of command" will tell people what to do and when to do it, with there being no need for techo's from different fields to communicate.
 
A recent retirement has resulted in the area I work in being able to progress from the 1950's up to the early 1980's in terms of processes.  Hopefully another couple of retirements, or transfers will allow us to finally enter the new Millenium. 
 
Personally I am hoping for a GD (Electric Boat) sponsored Austal take over.
 
Quote    Reply

Cyrus    SSGT?   10/19/2008 11:17:44 AM
I've been wondering if something along the lines of a mix of 2 sizes number of larger ones the enhanced Collins and number of a smaller version like a design similar to or BMT's SSGT with a smaller crew then replace the Collins at a later date with new large design?
 
 ht*p://media.bmt.org/bmt_media/resources/38/SsgtBrochure.pdf
 

 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       10/19/2008 4:12:40 PM

I've been wondering if something along the lines of a mix of 2 sizes number of larger ones the enhanced Collins and number of a smaller version like a design similar to or BMT's SSGT with a smaller crew then replace the Collins at a later date with new large design?
all of the major new sub designs I've seen are looking at subs acting as managers for dismounted weapons and sig systems
 
thats more efficient than a mixed size fleet of manned subs
 
Quote    Reply
1 2



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics