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Subject: Unregulated Greed; a sad state of the human psyche...
fall out    10/6/2008 6:56:31 PM
A lot of these problems now occuring with the global financial and economic system is in part due to too many (affluent) people placing greed and the never ending thirst for fatter profits over prudent investing and regulated and steady asset and profit building. The worst now is that us, as in the humbled taxpayers are now going to pay not just with money in order to bail out these scum but many may also indirectly lose their job/life savings and what happens, how do we fix it? Just pump more money into these areas...and what do you think will happen? Not sure if anyone heard about how much money Richard Fuld (head of the firm) took home from the now failed Lehman Brothers investment firm over the last 8 years? $300m USD since 2000!!! Believe it or not he admitted that during the time he was pleading with congress and the federal treasury for a bail out he also requested another multi-million bonus! Not sure about you guys but to be honest this stuff makes me incredibly angry and sick...these pr(cks take home more money in one bonus than the majority of the world's workers take home in a lifetime of hard work and yet the state generally on the whole leaves them alone, if not encourages them to speculate more investments, etc. Capitalism hey, what a disgusting, disgraceful part of human history...oh how I would love for real socialism/communism to take a firm hold in Australia and around the world. You never know, we might actually then start addressing some real issues such as climate change, global poverty and hunger, gender inbalance in the workforce (and pay), universal healthcare and education. One can dream during this fast turning financial nightmare. FO
 
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Cyrus       10/12/2008 1:31:57 PM



gf0012-aust,  help me here.  Would the exchange rate guarantee that you have shown, keep the price of the F-35 down if the numbers were drastically cut by the USA as the poster suggested:





if the US buy price changes then ours will, but our privileged price will not change disproportionately in the current model.

Price mite not change but Quality of an already questionable aircraft mite

 
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gf0012-aust       10/12/2008 4:05:58 PM

Price mite not change but Quality of an already questionable aircraft mite


what quality control issues have there been that have been over and above the test and development of any other aircraft in modern jet fighter development since 1946?
 
don't listen to the spin promoted by some of the idiots getting airplay - especially when they've been comprehensively belted in the Govt Hearings (where it was made patently clear that they were clueless), where they've abused and stretched information beyind the pale (Clubbing Baby Seals is the classic example of how they abused and used incorrect assumptions and didn't understand the software used in the sims) etc.....
 

 
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Volkodav       10/13/2008 4:41:15 AM
Read some more on that Rand report, the issue apparently related to the number of airframes times the number of air to air missiles carried.  The problem was that the proposed number of F-35's didn't provide a sufficient number of missiles to take out the estemated number of opposing aircraft they would be facing.
 
It was an issue of quantity not of quality.  Now lets assume that we are countering 4.5 gen adversaries, it is highly doubtful that they would out number the F-35 in any given senario by more than 4 to 1, which is what would be required to run the F-35's out of internal carried BVR missiles.  Add in some 4th or even 3rd gen fighters to flesh out the numbers then you will encounter a problem as each Meteor or AMRAAM can still only account for one airframe each whether it be an SU-XX or a Cessna fitted with a BB gun.
 
Solutions, external stowage to increase the number of missiles carried by the F-35, use the F-35 in conjunction with another type, i.e. the SH Block II, which can carry a significant number of BVR missiles or buy more F-35's.
 
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Volkodav    Back on topic   10/13/2008 4:49:02 AM

Pinstriped pirates pocket biggest pay

By Mike O'Connor

October 13, 2008 12:01am

Article from: The Courier-Mailhttp://www.news.com.au/images/sources/h14_thecouriermail.gif" border="0" />

IF YOU were thinking of asking the boss for a rise, you would have to reason that now might not be a good time.

Share prices have been trashed, an international recession looms, baby boomers have watched their retirement plans drift out of sight and the only bright spot on the national horizon is Kevin Rudd's ever-present blue tie.

Whenever I complained of my lot as a teenager, my grandmother would shake her finger at me and say: "Just thank God you didn't go through The Depression."

Perhaps I'm about to find out what she meant, but there is one blessed group which will continue to sip Veuve Clicquot and slurp down oysters while the rest of us fight over crusts.

As the sharemarket slipped and then slid and finally spiralled into the inky depths of despair, this group asked itself if it deserved a pay rise. After several seconds of intense deliberation, its members decided that indeed they did, agreeing that they had done such a splendid job for their shareholders that the least they could do was to help themselves to a few more fistfuls of lolly while there was some to be had.

I refer, of course, to the senior executives of our larger companies.

When share prices rise, they point to the flickering numbers on the stock exchange screens to justify voting them and their mates massive salary increases.

Does this mean then that as share prices fall, these salaries decline accordingly?

Apparently it doesn't work that way.

Geoff Dixon, the head of Qantas, certainly won't be taking a pay cut as he heads into retirement even though the airline's share price has been slashed in the past six months. Mr Dixon, who steps down next month, will take home $11.92 million this year.

This makes him the second-highest paid airline executive in the world, not a bad deal when you consider that Qantas is a small player on the aviation stage and that the man who runs the biggest airline in the world, American Airlines, only earns $6.1 million.

Last year, Mr Dixon made only $6.5 million so his pay has increased by as much as the share price has fallen. Nice work if you can get it.

In Queensland John Mulcahy, head of local banking and insurance giant Suncorp, has watched as earnings per share have tumbled from $1.59 to 60 and profits have fallen by half.

While this happened, his salary rose from $5.3 million in 2007 to $6.2 million in 2008.

Try telling your boss that because the company is making half as much money as it was a year ago, he should give you a 20 per cent pay rise.

The chief executive of shopping centre owner Centro, Andrew Scott, who distinguished himself by running the worst-performing property trust in the country - well done, Andrew - was finally shown the door at the beginning of the year. He left, however, with $3 million tucked under his arm.

The trust's units, priced at $7.50 a year ago, are now all but worthless.

Mike Tilley, who did a fantastic job for his shareholders by driving the Challenger Financial services group to a $44 million loss, left after serving 10 months of a five-year contract. The pain of unemployment, however, was leavened by the $10 million he took with him when he left.

Macquarie Bank shares have fallen from their once lofty heights, which isn't likely to bother chief executive Nicholas Moore overly, given that he pocketed $26.7 million this year, small change when compared with the $50 million package gifted to his successor, Allan Moss.

National Australia Bank's John Stewart, who oversaw the bank's disastrous exposure to the American mortgage market, left after four years in the job with $10 million in his bulging briefcase. And Foster's boss Trevor O'Hoy, who sat in the big chair while the company wrote the value of its wine business down by $700 million, left with $3.7 million.

The more you screw up, the greater the disaster over which you preside, then the more money you get. There's no accountability. Just gouge as deeply as you think you can and then make a run for the door.

Prime Minister Rudd and Treasurer Wayne Swan have mumbled about limiting executive salaries. Nothing will ever come of it. It was pure political lip service but it doesn't matter because it's not the point.

The point is that there is an appalling lack of boardroom morality in this countr

 
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Aussiegunneragain    FO   10/13/2008 6:50:52 AM
The thing you are overlooking in your call to ditch free markets is the dramatic improvement in living standards that they have provided to countries that embrace them (like Australia), over a very long period of time. When you look at real economic growth charted over the last century, you will notice that episodes like the Great Depression and the early 90's recession are dwarfed by the gains that have been made.
Despite the tired "rich are getting richer and poor are getting poorer" mantra, those gains have benefitted even ordinary people. Think about the opportunities you now have as a young Joe Bloggs on the street compared to what you would have 100 years ago. Suffice to say that you wouldn't have been at uni (or even high school) for all these years, you wouldn't be contemplating a couple of years of travel, you wouldn't be looking at an 80 year plus life expenctancy, you wouldn't have the opportunity to have a car etc, etc, etc. Those things have come because markets have been allowed to work and when we have retreated from that (like during the 50's and 60's), our growth has suffered but we have still suffered a recession at the end of it.
 
Don't get me wrong, recessions are terrible things that cause a lot of suffering. My families finances got raped in the early 90's and it caused us lots of hardship, so I do thing governments have a role in preventing that occuring. I do think that the US in particular needs to improve its financial regulatory regime (notice I don't necessarily say increase regulation). However, substantially ditching free markets is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
As for executive renumeration, I agree that it seems obscene but it is a reality that we have to live with. If governments tried to cap it it would just lead to a lot more companies basing themselves out of places like the Bahamas. It is important to note however that most CEO's generate many times the economic growth of their pay cheque, so if the mega bucks is what is needed to attract them it is worth it not just for the company but also for society. I'd also note that its hard to spend a fraction of that amount of money, so you can bet your bottom dollar that most is prudently re-invested in businesses which contribute to our overall economic wellbeing.
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       10/13/2008 7:10:57 AM

Read some more on that Rand report, the issue apparently related to the number of airframes times the number of air to air missiles carried.  The problem was that the proposed number of F-35's didn't provide a sufficient number of missiles to take out the estemated number of opposing aircraft they would be facing.


and it's the most loaded scenario one could find.
 
it assumes that the blue force is committted in absentia of any sig management assets, that the US is not responding at a systems level (juat look at the  air battle space management for Iraq in GW1 and GW2), and it assumes that the US was unable to anticipate or read any of the tells that "red force" needs to undertake to go to war en masse.
 
no wonder the JSF guys in Campbell Park are pi$$ing themselves laughing at the report.  (apart from the fact that RAND also uses the publicly available data including metdata from the illustrious tools at APA)
 
it's a ferking joke, and those who take it seriously need to re-read it and look at it again from a battlespace management perspective rather than a clash of titans where one giant is deliberately knobbled so that they can't use their advantages (and you don't need 1 for 1 missiles to win the battle)
 
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Cyrus       10/14/2008 4:40:48 AM



Price mite not change but Quality of an already questionable aircraft mite






what quality control issues have there been that have been over and above the test and development of any other aircraft in modern jet fighter development since 1946?

 

don't listen to the spin promoted by some of the idiots getting airplay - especially when they've been comprehensively belted in the Govt Hearings (where it was made patently clear that they were clueless), where they've abused and stretched information beyond the pale (Clubbing Baby Seals is the classic example of how they abused and used incorrect assumptions and didn't understand the software used in the sims) etc.....


I am Listening to both sides of this argument
Tho I was referring to a memory of some bigwig in lockmart saying right from the start the price would stay down even if they had to make compromises to do it. As for the questionable part its not just apa questioning it and not referring to seals when they do britts are thinking twice some of the American experts are questioning whether it can replace the A-10 as it suppose to Norway is thinking hard about it too
Tho I am worried that the JSF may turn into a jack of all trades master of none as in a reasonable bomber and a crap air superiority fighter and that it doesn't have the legs or payload of the F-111 and as that simulation showed the air refuelers where taken out also how much will it be nerfed for export.
I would love to see  a mix of F-22As,JSFs and upgraded  F-111s for deep strike and ew (not to mention what would the banana benders do with out something to start Riverfire) also to go into a deal with the lockmart to help fund development of the FB-22 to replace the F-111 in say 2020.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       10/14/2008 5:37:05 AM

Read some more on that Rand report, the issue apparently related to the number of airframes times the number of air to air missiles carried.  The problem was that the proposed number of F-35's didn't provide a sufficient number of missiles to take out the estemated number of opposing aircraft they would be facing.
 
It was an issue of quantity not of quality.  Now lets assume that we are countering 4.5 gen adversaries, it is highly doubtful that they would out number the F-35 in any given senario by more than 4 to 1, which is what would be required to run the F-35's out of internal carried BVR missiles.  Add in some 4th or even 3rd gen fighters to flesh out the numbers then you will encounter a problem as each Meteor or AMRAAM can still only account for one airframe each whether it be an SU-XX or a Cessna fitted with a BB gun.

 Solutions, external stowage to increase the number of missiles carried by the F-35, use the F-35 in conjunction with another type, i.e. the SH Block II, which can carry a significant number of BVR missiles or buy more F-35's.

Well then the Rand report just jumped to the top of the list of the most idiotic pieces of literature that I have ever heard of. Even in the remote scenario where the F-35's were outnumbered by 4 to 1, do the authors seriously think that all those 4th and 3rd gen pilots are going to be happy to "take a missile for the team", until the Lightnings run out and the remainder of the orange force kill them (if they can find them, that is)?  How is the orange force going to get that many aircraft into the air, when F-35's have just romped over their airfields un-detected and walloped anything still in its shelter with SDB's? What a load of crap.
The other thing that fascinates me is that people still don't think that with at least 10 airforces buying these things, with the majority of them planning on using them in the air to air role, that a multiple AAM launcher won't be developed to fit inside the bomb bay.

 
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warpig       10/14/2008 9:53:47 AM


I am Listening to both sides of this argument


Tho I was referring to a memory of some bigwig in lockmart saying right from the start the price would stay down even if they had to make compromises to do it. As for the questionable part its not just apa questioning it and not referring to seals when they do britts are thinking twice some of the American experts are questioning whether it can replace the A-10 as it suppose to Norway is thinking hard about it too



Tho I am worried that the JSF may turn into a jack of all trades master of none as in a reasonable bomber and a crap air superiority fighter and that it doesn't have the legs or payload of the F-111 and as that simulation showed the air refuelers where taken out also how much will it be nerfed for export.


I would love to see  a mix of F-22As,JSFs and upgraded  F-111s for deep strike and ew (not to mention what would the banana benders do with out something to start Riverfire) also to go into a deal with the lockmart to help fund development of the FB-22 to replace the F-111 in say 2020.



Nothing has the range and payload of an F-111.  If Australia thinks it must have that, then it needs to buy a bomber, not a fighter.  By the way, there aren't any available, so getting new aircraft that have the range and payload of F-111s is even less possible than getting F-22s:  currently impossible, but at least in the case of F-22s we may someday change the law and make them available to you.
 
Meanwhile the F-35 is as good or better a bomber as any other (actually available) choice, and actually much better in some categories--most notably survivability.  As for legs and payload, it is better in those categories than pretty much any of Australia's other available choices, as well.  And as for air-to-air, as has been repeatedly, conclusively explained on this site, it is the second-best air superiority fighter in the sky overall, and only rates a little lower in selected circumstances.
That "simulation" showed nothing of value about the F-35 per se as it was ridiculous on many levels, again as already demonstrated in detail here on StrategyPage..
 
 
 
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Cyrus       10/14/2008 12:31:00 PM





I am Listening to both sides of this argument






Tho I was referring to a memory of some bigwig in lockmart saying right from the start the price would stay down even if they had to make compromises to do it. As for the questionable part its not just apa questioning it and not referring to seals when they do britts are thinking twice some of the American experts are questioning whether it can replace the A-10 as it suppose to Norway is thinking hard about it too









Tho I am worried that the JSF may turn into a jack of all trades master of none as in a reasonable bomber and a crap air superiority fighter and that it doesn't have the legs or payload of the F-111 and as that simulation showed the air refuelers where taken out also how much will it be nerfed for export.






I would love to see  a mix of F-22As,JSFs and upgraded  F-111s for deep strike and ew (not to mention what would the banana benders do with out something to start Riverfire) also to go into a deal with the lockmart to help fund development of the FB-22 to replace the F-111 in say 2020.









Nothing has the range and payload of an F-111.  If Australia thinks it must have that, then it needs to buy a bomber, not a fighter.  By the way, there aren't any available, so getting new aircraft that have the range and payload of F-111s is even less possible than getting F-22s:  currently impossible, but at least in the case of F-22s we may someday change the law and make them available to you.

 

Meanwhile the F-35 is as good or better a bomber as any other (actually available) choice, and actually much better in some categories--most notably survivability.  As for legs and payload, it is better in those categories than pretty much any of Australia's other available choices, as well.  And as for air-to-air, as has been repeatedly, conclusively explained on this site, it is the second-best air superiority fighter in the sky overall, and only rates a little lower in selected circumstances.


That "simulation" showed nothing of value about the F-35 per se as it was ridiculous on many levels, again as already demonstrated in detail here on StrategyPage..

 

 

and so our dilemma we cant buy what we want because of a law and we probably couldn't afford it anyhow so our choices are putting all our eggs in the JSF basket and hope like hell nothing goes wrong. buy into the Raptorsski or develop our own.
I would like to see us develop our own military aircraft but I know that wouldn't be viable for probably many reason's
 
I guess I'm worried that this is another almighty Kockup by our military procurement procedures. Like us buying a main battle tank we couldn't airlift and still cant sealift not cause it was the best tank on offer but because and I quote the press briefing
because it had the best PACKAGE so we don't care how many tank crews get killed so long as we got the best package deal the military equivalent of a  free set of steak knifes. I wonder if the agent making the presentation actually said the words
"but wait there's more"
And so all we can do is wait with baited breath for the almighty magic white paper which will tell us what to do and save us all (thank jeebus)
 
Actually I would like to know if the turbines of the M1A1 are having any trouble with the outbacks red dust I herd that this was a problem during desert storm and that they did fix it with a skirt and that there was a new type of filter
I'm just wondering if anyone has herd if its still a problem or not.

Oh (haha) and in answer to what this post's original topic was it would matter what system of government you replaced our current one with you are still stuck with the same problem that most people that seek power are most often the one's that should have it the least for every Lenin there are Three Stalin's
 
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