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Subject: New Light Fleet Carriers for the RAN
Volkodav    9/12/2008 10:05:52 PM
India and China are both aiming to build substantial USN challenging carrier centric blue water navies over the coming decades. The USN is working to intoduce carrier based UCAV's into service as soon as possible. Would a new generation CVL with EM cats and arrestor gear combined with many of the invative features of the evolved CV21 follow on's, equiped with a mix of surveilence and attack UCAVs and perhaps a single 10-12 aircraft sqn of F-35C's, be an option for the RAN post 2030? I have some ideas of what would work but am interested in the ideas of others.
 
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Cyrus       10/4/2008 1:20:26 PM
How about a proper fixed wing carrier or 2 that doesn't take the crew of the larger carriers
yes i know it was only a concept drawing that wasn't even seriously considered but maybe Australia should consider it in stead of one the Canberra class or as an addition too it could even be designed and built in oz to our specs
http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvfimages/cvf-tri.jpg" align="center" width="300" height="277" /> 
 
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Volkodav       10/5/2008 4:21:07 AM
http://www.uss-argos.com/Modelle/ASP-03-2.jpg" alt="" />
 
Love the look of it even though it can't be called light under any definition.
 
 
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StevoJH       10/5/2008 5:29:29 AM
In regards to Lawman's comment about a third LHD being unlikely due to the increased need for escorts, the situation would be no different to the situation that exists now with Kanimbla, Manoora and Tobruk. Its simply a 1 for 1 replacement with much better capabilities in the replacements. Helicopter facilities not seen since the departure of Sydney and Melbourne for one.

 
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Volkodav       10/7/2008 7:51:57 PM
I just dug out my copy of "Wings Across the Sea" which lists the responses to Australia's invitation to register interest in participating in the aircraft carrier project in 1977.
 
The existing designs were:
Invincible fom Vickers
SCS from Bazan (now part of Navantia)
Garibaldi from Italcantieri
LHA from Litton Ingalls
 
The development and conceptioal designs were:
12800t Macship from Vickers
8000t Harrier Carrier from Vosper Thornycroft
18100t PH75 from DTCN
14800t SCS from Gibbs & Cox
53800t modified LHA from Litton
12500t DD963 AC from Litton
20800t VSTOL carrier from John J McMullan
14800t SCS variant from Rosenblatt & Son
PROTEAN modular design from YARD
 
The three finalists were:
Garibaldi
SCS
LPH (Iwo Jima) variant from Litton
 
The LPH was apparently the leading contender before the offer of an already completed Invincible from the UK.  The LPH was interesting in that it was to be powered by LM2500 GT's and was to be equiped with AN/SPS-52C 3D radar and SM-1.
 
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JTR~~    This is interesting   9/30/2010 3:40:30 PM

MOTHERSHIP FOR UNMANNED VEHICLES LOOKS TO THE FUTURE


11 Sep 2007 | Ref. 286/2007




UXV Printhttp://www.baesystems.com/static/bae_cimg_286_uxv_print_latestReleased_bae_cimg_286_uxv_print_Web.jpg" />

UXV Print



BAE Systems has developed a new concept warship, the UXV Combatant, designed to operate in a future battle space dominated by land, sea and air unmanned vehicles.


Using a proven naval hull form to launch, operate and recover large numbers of small unmanned vehicles for extended periods, the UXV plays the role of mother ship - a permanent base and control centre for the futuristic unmanned land, sea and air vehicles before, during and on completion of their missions. The 8000-tonne vessel, an evolution of the multi-role warship, is not expected to enter service until post 2020.


The design provides a cost-effective solution to the evolving challenges facing the modern navy. Features will include:




  • Flexible and efficient twin flight decks
  • Variable ski jump
  • Rotary aviation facilities
  • Below-deck hangar
  • Smart munitions


The weapons are a future development of the Type 45 combat suite. With the UXV support capability, performing multiple roles combined with an easily adaptable design, which moves the concept of stealth to the next level.


Propulsion options include full integrated electrical propulsion with twin propeller shafts/motors supplied by gas turbine and diesel alternators. Alternatively, cruising power can be supplied by two shafts/motors and diesel alternators with boost power from one gas turbine driving two water jets.


The concept brings together naval technologies developed through collaboration with partners such as Rolls Royce and across BAE Systems business units, as part of a programme of continuous improvement.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

 

Now if it was bigger and had a through deck design with EM cats and arrester gear......you get the picture?


i have done a little research into this, but im afraid there is very little about it out there at the moment.
Firstly i would very much like to know, will this thing actually be built, because at the moment it is only an envisaged proposal, i know i mentioned that it would enter service in 2020, but surely thats only if they get a customer, and my second question is, is the customer meant to be the UK?
 
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LB    Air Wing   9/30/2010 9:42:32 PM
You really need to start with the size of the air wing which of course stems from the purpose of having the carrier air wing in the first place.  A dozen aircraft might be useful in supporting various contingencies but one has to ask if that justifies the costs?  

In my view a "real" carrier has to be large enough to justify AEW aircraft (3 or 4) and carry enough fighters both minimum air defense and strike- say 24+.  Throw in a few helicopters and/or other aircraft and the smallest carrier that makes sense is 30+ aircraft.

A CTOL carrier with 12 aircraft makes no sense.  The size of the required deck for arrested landings precludes a small carrier so once you've required CTOL you probably have a minimum air wing of 30 to 40+.  If the requirement is for 12 aircraft then you need to look at the F-35B.  You then have to ask if you want even basic heli AEW and if so does an air wing of 12 F-35B and 3 AEW heli's make sense?  I'd argue it doesn't and that you'd want at least 20 B's to support a minimum 2 aircraft continuous CAP with 2 more at ready 5.

You're also paying for the escort ships as well.  One can field a harrier carrier with 12 aircraft but the cost to increase the size of the carrier to get to a really useful air wing size is actually marginal within the total cost of the battle group.  In any case until you get to around 24 fighters plus support aircraft in my view a CTOL carrier is a non starter.
 
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Ispose    Japanese?   10/7/2010 3:25:57 PM
How about license built copies of that new Japanese carrier....err...destroyer?
 
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aussienscale       11/6/2010 7:17:12 AM
Just thought I would throw into the ring, while you guys are playing around with different options/sizes/configurations etc.
Did you know the new emals can also be used on Ski Ramps ?
 
That could open up a few more possibilities
 
Did you also know that Australia was offered the SCS design and knocked it back, Spain brought it and the PDA was the result ? As far as the Faklands being the end of our carrier ops in the RAN, it wasn't, it was a political decision made by good old Bob, It was also the greatest day in the RAAF's history when that happened. They have been able to maintain the illusion that some fast jets can cover the RAN or anything else ever since, and they will not relinquish that under any circumstances
 
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