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Subject: What sort of land force does Australia really need?
Volkodav    8/19/2008 8:19:53 AM
Continental defence suggests light armour and motorised infantry. Regional commitments suggest air mobile light infantry. Extra regional coalition operations suggest heavy armour. We need to be capable in all areas but how can we achieve a balanced capable force with our small recruitment base? What solutions may we be seeing in the Defence White Paper?
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Raven   8/29/2008 8:51:35 PM


Give the brains trust of 1 Brigade some bloody credit - they can see past their noses, and know the benefits of wheels versus tracks and vice versa. Hence why the tanks and IFVs are tracked and the cavalry vehicles wheeled. A man who has spend his entire life manoeuvring AFVs both here and on ops, with our army and others, will likely be able to think at least as clearly as some random bloke on the internet. But since AG is getting on my nerves, lets have a look at why wheeled AFVs are better than tracked AFVs for cavalry tasks (ie, why the ASLAV isn't useless.)


For starters, AGs assertion that we need to concentrate only on jungle warfare in the region is totally at odds with reality. Australian forces are and always will be required to fight across the entire spectrum of conflct in any terrain or conditions (except possibly arctic conditions). At the moment we are mainly engaged, with the rest of the Western world, in a major conflict in the Middle East in which mechanised combined arms formations (including wheeled AFVs) are required. We will be fighting that conflict for years, hence we need to be equipped to fight it. That includes wheeled AFVs. That wheeled vehicles have potentially inferior tactical mobility to tracked vehicles in jungle conditions does not make them useless or a waste of money, only part of a balanced force structure able to respond to contingincies as directed by Government.


Now, why are wheeled vehicles superior to tracked vehicles for cavalry tasks, independent of terrain? Well first lets look at typical cavalry tasks - reconaissance, raiding, ambushing, convoy escort, security operations, as fire support for lighter forces when tanks are unavailable or inappropriate, QRF etc. For these tasks there are two main things that cavalry need to bring to the fight to achieve these tasks for the commander - flexibility and mobility. Flexibility is a function of the skills of cavalrymen, the fact that cavalry has both mounted and dismounted elementsm, the multi-purpose nature of the vehicles, and also the mobility inherant in the vehicles. In summary - the main thing required of a cavalry vehicle is mobility. But what is mobility, and why are wheels better for cavalry?


If you want to look at the benefits of wheels for cavalry vehicles over tracks, lets look at the ASLAV compared to the previously mentioned Puma (its not really a fair comparison since the Puma is 25 years newer than the ASLAV, but it will do for illustrative purposes). If you want to describe the aspects of 'mobility' in an AFV, you could do worse than to break it down into tactical, operational and strategic aspects (not textbook use of those terms but good enough to illustrate my point).


Tactical mobility, or battlefield mobility if you like, is obviously about getting from tactical position to tactical position on the battlefield. Now, over flat ground the Puma might have equal or even better tactical mobility compared to ASLAV. That is, it can get from this hull down position to that hull down position a 1000m away, in similar time. It probably accelerates as well, and due to its tracks and suspension can probably keep a higher speed over broken ground. So for tactical mobility, not much change between tracks and wheels for cavalry tasks.


Now looking at operational mobility, or battlefield-to-battlefield mobility, wheels are much better than tracks. Ie, an ASLAV squadron can get from their screening mission here to an assembly area for a raid 120km away much quicker and easier than a squadron with Pumas. Or, an ASLAV troop can react as QRF to a critical incident 35km much quicker and easier than a Puma troop. For cavalry tasks, this level of mobility is the most important - the flexibility of cavalry (independent of which AFV they are equipped with) is mainly derived from their ability to quickly transition from one tactical task to another tactical task a long way away. A lot of this is down to the capabilities of the soldiers manning the vehicles, but the flexibility of the wheeled ASLAVs also helps.


Looking at strategic mobility, again wheels are far better for tracks for cavalry tasks. Want to get your LAV regiment from Kuwait to Anbar province? Drive them (the Marines did and do). Want to get a Puma regiment from Kuwait to Anbar province? Stick them on the back of trucks and get them driven (like the US Army does with their Abrams/Bradleys). In an Australian context, this is also very important, because we don't have the tank transporter capability of the US Army (for instance, we only have enough HETTs to li

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Raven   8/29/2008 9:06:43 PM
I see that you are getting upset and we both seem to be hammering on with the same arguments so I think it is probably time we talked about something else.
 
Cheers.
AG.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Raven - Question   8/29/2008 9:19:54 PM
However, tracked vehicles are far more vulnerable to mines/underbelly IEDs than wheeled vehicles. For instance, if a lot of the IEDs that hit Australian/Dutch IMVs in Afghanistan hit M113/Bradley etc intead, there would likely be many KIA compared to the none in Bushmasters. It is why a 20-tonne MRAP is superior to a 62-tonne Abrams in IED protection.
 
On a different note, do you think that tracked vehicles are generally more vulnerable to mines and underbelly IED than wheels, or does that only apply to the newer mine resistant ones such a Bushmaster and the MRAP program? Could the next generation of tracked vehicles be designed with increased mine resistance in mind?  
 
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gf0012-aust       8/29/2008 10:53:36 PM
 Could the next generation of tracked vehicles be designed with increased mine resistance in mind?  


seriously doubt it. tracked vehicles require different hull formation - and the nature of the drivetrain/track requirement meanst that they will out of necessity be panned hulls.  tracked don't have the same redundancy in the sense that if you blow the track or drive wheels, then you're compromised for a lot longer than if a tyred vehicle loses a wheel (or even a pair of wheels if an 8 wheeler.  even the 6's can limp home if the wheel spacing is right)
 
the engineering solutions for both tend to be different for those reasons.  tyre vehicles lean towards hull design for generating deflection for blast management, while pans tend to favour structural rigidity and "gates" (eg screens, cages, blow off armour)  to act as counterforce for any incoming violent proximity energy forces.
 
current thinking wouldn't seem to indicate any shift in those fundamental concepts, sure there are new composites and laminates which are very promising, but the hull deficiencies and design liabilities still exist.  eg in heavy tracked vehicles there's been a focus on protecting via interior design (eg fluid mounts or suspended mounts to absorb blast before it hits the occupants.)   thats less of an issue as far as interior design goes for tyred V hulls.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Raven22       8/30/2008 2:31:17 AM

You are right it is getting boring. One last comment though:

We have a small army and frankly we can't afford the sort of balanced force structure that you are describing (and which unfortunately we have, thanks to the good Professor Dibb's efforts), which can provide a good all round capability at home, in the region and around the world. Our allies can do that but we can't and the sooner that people in the forces who haven't got a grip on that do the better.

Just making a point - every time that Carlo Kopp says something at odds with what the combined thought of the Air Force and respectable defence commentators say, he is shouted down for being an arrogant so and so. You are doing the same. You are telling the entire defence establishment - from the dudes on the ground that use the vehicles to the suits in Canberra that write up the requirments for the LAND 400 vehicles, to the defence commentators that think a third cavalry regiment should be raised for 3 brigade - that they are wrong.

Fact: LAND 400 will replace ASLAV with another wheeled AFV.

Fact: We are buying 700 Bushmaster and will likely buy more.

Fact: We are fighting in the Middle East now and will be for probably the next ten years.

Fact: When the personnel and equipment is available we will raise a third cavalry regiment in 3 brigade.

Fact: Wheeled AFVs have been in the past and are now being used in our region.

The entire rest of the defence establishment are wrong and you are right? I don't think so.

 
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Aussiegunneragain    GF   8/30/2008 2:31:35 AM


seriously doubt it. tracked vehicles require different hull formation - and the nature of the drivetrain/track requirement meanst that they will out of necessity be panned hulls.  tracked don't have the same redundancy in the sense that if you blow the track or drive wheels, then you're compromised for a lot longer than if a tyred vehicle loses a wheel (or even a pair of wheels if an 8 wheeler.  even the 6's can limp home if the wheel spacing is right)

the engineering solutions for both tend to be different for those reasons.  tyre vehicles lean towards hull design for generating deflection for blast management, while pans tend to favour structural rigidity and "gates" (eg screens, cages, blow off armour)  to act as counterforce for any incoming violent proximity energy forces.

current thinking wouldn't seem to indicate any shift in those fundamental concepts, sure there are new composites and laminates which are very promising, but the hull deficiencies and design liabilities still exist.  eg in heavy tracked vehicles there's been a focus on protecting via interior design (eg fluid mounts or suspended mounts to absorb blast before it hits the occupants.)   thats less of an issue as far as interior design goes for tyred V hulls.

 
 
Ta. I can see why there are substantially greater challenges for tracks that tyres, given that any explosion is going to either hit the tracks themselves or be channelled up between them directly into the hull. If we are doing everything they can and there are no other engineering solutions on the horizon, then that is unfortunate. I wonder though if some sort of magnetic mine detector could be developed that could be fitted to the front of existing vehicles, which could fire some sort of charge into the ground when a mine is detected and thus set it off before it hits the vehicle? It wouldn't need to be as cumbersome as a mine plow or roller as it would be projected out above the ground and would rely on the explosive charge rather than pressure. know it wouldn't be any good for mines without substantial metal componentry, but it would at least reduce the risk from those that do. Perhaps if it was sensitive enough it might be able to detect the wiring in the detonation mechinism from a remotely detonated IED?

 
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gf0012-aust       8/30/2008 3:23:20 AM

 
I wonder though if some sort of magnetic mine detector could be developed that could be fitted to the front of existing vehicles, which could fire some sort of charge into the ground when a mine is detected and thus set it off before it hits the vehicle?
 
There's been a few shots of heavy vehicles with non standard electrically connected front mounts attached.  There is no commentary that is provided with the images, but those who've been playing over there are more familiar.  IIRC, Raven has seen the same images that I have - so he may choose to comment. I can't.
 
Perhaps if it was sensitive enough it might be able to detect the wiring in the detonation mechinism from a remotely detonated IED?

There are other things that we do to minimise the opportunity for vehicles to wander into an IED.  Some of it involves overhead imagery management, driving behaviour (eg we do it differently compared to the US), route planning (eg we do it differently compared to the US), scouting behaviour (eg we do it differently compared to the US) etc...  I'd have to say that unfort for me unless Raven also comments then I won't add further.  I'm not trying to be precious, but I'm pretty sure that some of the commentary that he and I have seen re coalition convoy management and anti-IED devices was in a non public section of another forum)
 
I'll see if there is a publicly available image doing the rounds unless Raven or Aussie Digger post them (as I'm pretty sure AD's also seen it under the same viewing/commentary restriction conditions)
 



 
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gf0012-aust       8/30/2008 3:38:09 AM
http://blog.wired.com/defense/images/2008/08/25/img_7263.jpg" width="660" height="310" />
 
 Found a publicly available image of a non standard fitout.  There are variations of these fitouts on the cousins vehicles.
 
The Brits and Israelis also have variations on the theme.  
 
The comments and initial thread were in a non publicly avail section of the forum and have been pulled.
 
 
 

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Raven - get your facts straight before throwing around accusations like that.    8/30/2008 3:43:06 AM

Just making a point - every time that Carlo Kopp says something at odds with what the combined thought of the Air Force and respectable defence commentators say, he is shouted down for being an arrogant so and so. You are doing the same. You are telling the entire defence establishment - from the dudes on the ground that use the vehicles to the suits in Canberra that write up the requirments for the LAND 400 vehicles, to the defence commentators that think a third cavalry regiment should be raised for 3 brigade - that they are wrong.

Fact: LAND 400 will replace ASLAV with another wheeled AFV.

Fact: We are buying 700 Bushmaster and will likely buy more.

Fact: We are fighting in the Middle East now and will be for probably the next ten years.

Fact: When the personnel and equipment is available we will raise a third cavalry regiment in 3 brigade.

Fact: Wheeled AFVs have been in the past and are now being used in our region.

The entire rest of the defence establishment are wrong and you are right? I don't think so.


I was going to leave it at that but since you have taken to comparing me to Carlo Kopp I will respond. How about you learn to read before you do that. I never said anything whatsoever about Land 400. What I did say is that the mass purchase of ASLAV's and Bushmasters that resulted out of decisions made as a result of the DOA policy in the late 1980's has reduced the capability of our Army to operate in our most important theatre and I stand by that statement.
On Land 400 I think we should purchase an appropriate number of of wheeled vehicles to ride shotgun for diplomats and engineers working in Afghanistan and Iraq. If we will buy wheels, tracks or both (given the common vehicle requirement of Land 400) and in what numbers I don't know. Given that the first pass on Land 400 isn't even due till 2009 and the final decision won't be made until 2011/2012, quite frankly neither do you.
 
As for your implied suggestion that the entire defence establishment speaks as one on any issue whatsover, I'll leave you with this  discussion between two members of your corp, which occurred after the Abram's purchase was decided.  
 

Questions on the M1A1


IN REGARDS to the Army's descision to buy the M1 Abrams from the Americans. It is a good vehicle though probably too big and too heavy for Australian conditions. If a Leopard gets bogged in Mt Bundy's bulldust at 42 tonnes what is a M1 going to do at 63.082 tonnes (cbt weight).

A few questions need to be asked on whether the deal offered was complete or just enough to sucker us into a long-term and expensive item of equipment.

Are we going to get repair facilities with them or the patent to manufacture parts, or are we going to get suckered to an American company for 20 years? The same applies to the facilities required to train gunners, commanders, operators, drivers and RAEME soldiers on the new vehicle.

Are we going to get the support vehicles to go with them, new ARVMs (RAEME recovery vehicle) and the heavy lift transport vehicles?

Is it compatible with the current vehicle inter-comunications systems or are we going to have to buy that too? Are we goin

 
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Raven22       8/30/2008 3:48:30 AM
I think I'll choose not to comment on our anti-IED kit beyond saying it is very effective. There aren't many secrets more closely kept than these (I even noticed in the latest Army rag they blanked out one of the pieces of kit in question). The kit is saving my ass from day to day after all, so enough said.
 
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