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Subject: LAND 17 gets weird
Aussie Diggermark 2    7/21/2008 9:29:32 AM
WASHINGTON --- The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia of M777A2 155mm Light-Weight Howitzers as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $248 million. The Government of Australia has requested a possible sale of 57 M777A2 155mm Light-Weight Howitzers, 57 AN/VRC-91F Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio Systems (SINCGARS), integration, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $248 million. Australia is one of our most important allies in the Western Pacific. The strategic location of this political and economic power contributes significantly to ensuring peace and economic stability in the region. Australia’s efforts in peacekeeping and humanitarian operations in Iraq and in Afghanistan have had a significant impact on regional political and economic stability and have served U.S. national security interests. This proposed sale is consistent with those objectives and facilitates burden-sharing with our allies. This proposed sale would greatly contribute to Australia’s military capability by making it a more sustainable coalition force to support the Global War on Terror. Australia will use these new M777A2 155mm Howitzers to protect its deployed troops, and give them the ability to operate in hazardous conditions. Australia currently operates the 100mm [actually 105mm—Ed.] Hamel Howitzer and the 155mm M198 Howitzer and will have no difficulty absorbing these howitzers into its armed forces. The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region. The prime contractors will be: BAE Land Systems in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and ITT in Fort Wayne, Indiana. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale. The proposed sale requires engineering technical support for approximately two U.S. government representatives and five contractor representatives for one year. There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale. This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded. -ends- Courtesy: ww*.dsca.mil 57x? That number was never mentioned in ANY of the LAND 17 RFT documents... I'm wondering whether the SPG is now a goner if so many M777A2's are getting ordered, or if Government is actually getting serious about replacing Army's artillery capability with a reasonable number of pieces? I'm betting on the former, but one never knows...
 
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gf0012-aust       8/1/2008 8:40:13 PM

 
and are looking to other solutions for Self Propelled Non-line of sight weapons.....  Ie : 120mm mortar  and GMLRS  ...   


nope
 
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Aussie Diggermark 2       8/2/2008 6:29:31 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but does not 1 Field Regt operate 3x gun batteries, 4 Field Regt operate 3x gun batteries (or at least will when A Battery moves there), 8/12 Mdm Regt operates 2x gun batteries and 53 Independent Battery supports the School of Artillery with a full 6x gun battery?
 
When the HNA/ELF enhancements are complete, 1 Field (or whatever it's called once it maintains a full complement of 155mm guns) will operate 2x gun batteries, 4 Field will operate 3x gun batteries, 8/12 Mdm Regt will operate 2x gun batteries, 53 Independent Battery will maintain a full gun battery, plus the trade training schools will need guns to practice on...
 
I'll count my fingers again... :)
 
 

 
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Aussiegunneragain    AD   8/2/2008 9:18:27 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but does not 1 Field Regt operate 3x gun batteries, 4 Field Regt operate 3x gun batteries (or at least will when A Battery moves there), 8/12 Mdm Regt operates 2x gun batteries and 53 Independent Battery supports the School of Artillery with a full 6x gun battery?

 
When the HNA/ELF enhancements are complete, 1 Field (or whatever it's called once it maintains a full complement of 155mm guns) will operate 2x gun batteries, 4 Field will operate 3x gun batteries, 8/12 Mdm Regt will operate 2x gun batteries, 53 Independent Battery will maintain a full gun battery, plus the trade training schools will need guns to practice on...

 
I'll count my fingers again... :)
 
Previously you said,

I cannot explain where that number "57" came from, however this number will allow us to provide 3x batteries for 3 Brigade, (probably) 3x batteries for 7 brigade AND 2x for 1 Brigade, which would equate to 48x guns and then leave enough for a full 6x gun battery for 53 Independent Battery at the School of Artillery and 3x guns for the trade training school (where RAEME personel are taught how to maintain the guns).
Your figures in your second post (7 regular batteries) look better than those in your first (8). Perhaps you are getting confused over the current makeup of 1 Field (3 batteries, 1 regular and 2 reserve)?  
 
I expect that the make-up of 1 Field when HNA/ELF is complete will be 2 regular batteries, with the reserve batteries 13 Medium and 41 Field regiments following their battalions into 11 Brigade. I reckon that there is a good chance that those reserve regiments will get M777's rather than mortars, which would account for the 57 number if you factor in a battery of SP's each in support of 5 and 7 RAR . If they were going to get mortars, why would 13 Field have converted to 13 Medium with (presumably 2/10 Medium's former) M-198's in January this year? Even if they transfer to 11 Brigade which is part of 2nd Division, Queensland reserve units have traditionally been at higher readiness than the southern ones, with elements of their battalions have been deployed in ET and SI as part of the High-Readness Reserve.
 
So, the way that would break down would be,
 
1 Field - 2 x M777 Batteries (I would expect that it would still be called Field, as the M777 is classed as a "light" gun.
4 Field - 3 x M777 Batteries
8/12 Medium - 2 x K9 or PZH2000
A new Field regiment in support of 11 Brigade - 2 M777 Batteries
The remaining 2 Div regiments - 81mm mortars



 
 
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Volkodav    Latest from ADM   8/8/2008 10:48:01 PM

US Congress considers Aust M777 request

08 Aug 2008

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency has notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia of 57 M777A2 155MM Light-Weight Howitzers as well as associated equipment and services.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $248 million.

The Australian Government has requested a possible sale of 57 M777A2 155MM Light-Weight Howitzers, 57 AN/VRC-91F Single Channel Ground and Airborne Radio Systems (SINCGARS), integration, spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, maintenance, personnel training and training equipment, US Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of
logistics support.

In view of the foregoing, our guestimate for Land 17 wash-up:

? three full batteries of self-propelled 155mm howitzers for the 8/12 Mdm Regt to support medium combined arms teams, and

? four batteries of lightweight towed 155mm howitzers in the 4 Fd Regt to support light combined arms teams.

  

 
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Aussiegunneragain    Volkodav   8/8/2008 11:15:02 PM


In view of the foregoing, our guestimate for Land 17 wash-up:

? three full batteries of self-propelled 155mm howitzers for the 8/12 Mdm Regt to support medium combined arms teams, and

? four batteries of lightweight towed 155mm howitzers in the 4 Fd Regt to support light combined arms teams.   
 
According to the table below 1 Brigade (of which 8/12 is a part) is only keeping two artillery batteries. 3 and 7 Bdes are getting a two battery regiment each, though I hope that 3 Bde gets an extra battery as they have an extra battalion. By the numbers of M777's we are looking at getting there is hope that this will happen. So, we are realistically looking at 2 SP and 5 towed regular batteries, not 3 and 4 as you suggest.
 
> href="http://www.defence.gov.au/defencemagazine/editions/200702/groups/army.htm">
BRIGADE STRUCTURES IN 2016
  1 Bde 3 Bde
7 Bde
Infantry Mechanised Inf (M113)
5RAR, 7RAR
Light Inf
1RAR, 2RAR, 3RAR
Motorised Inf (IMV)
6RAR, 8/9RAR
Cavalry ASLAV
2 Cav Regt
Bushmaster IMV
B Sqn, 3/4 Cav Regt
ASLAV 2/14 LHR (QMI)
Armoured M1A1 Abrams Tank
1 Armd Regt
   
Support 2x Artillery Bty
2x Engineer sub-unit
2x Combat Service Support teams
Signals support
2x Artillery Bty
2x Engineer subunit
2x Combat Service Support teams
Signals support
2x Artillery Bty
2x Engineer subunit
2x Combat Service Support teams
Signals support


/>
AUSTRALIA?S INFANTRY BATTALIONS BY 2012
UNIT TYPE LOCATION
1RAR Light Townsville
2RAR Light Townsville
3RAR Light Townsville
4RAR Commando Sydney
5RAR Mechanised Darwin
6RAR Light/Motorised Brisbane
7RAR Mechanised Adelaide
8/9RAR Light/Motorised SE Queensland


 
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Volkodav       8/9/2008 12:43:59 AM
So, we are realistically looking at 2 SP and 5 towed regular batteries, not 3 and 4 as you suggest.
 
The wash up was part of the article, I didn't actually make any comment in the post.
 
I agree with you that an extra battery is probably a necessity for 3 Bde and 2 batteries of  SPG's are probably all thats needed for 1 Bde.  However looking outside the square a 3rd battery of SPG's would make sense if it was used to maintain a deployed 2 gun section in Afghanistan exclusive of the requirements of 1 Bde.
 
As an aside a gun on a truck or a portee option would probably be a good fit for 7 Bde under the HNA ethos.
 
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/9/2008 1:13:33 AM

So, we are realistically looking at 2 SP and 5 towed regular batteries, not 3 and 4 as you suggest.

 

The wash up was part of the article, I didn't actually make any comment in the post.

 I agree with you that an extra battery is probably a necessity for 3 Bde and 2 batteries of  SPG's are probably all thats needed for 1 Bde.  However looking outside the square a 3rd battery of SPG's would make sense if it was used to maintain a deployed 2 gun section in Afghanistan exclusive of the requirements of 1 Bde.

 
As an aside a gun on a truck or a portee option would probably be a good fit for 7 Bde under the HNA ethos. 

Oh, sorry about that .... the wash-up had the distinct look of an SP list. LOL!
Realistically I don't see that there is a hope in hell of this government buying and extra battery of SP's just for Afghanistan.  I also don't see why they would, as we wouldn't be deploying artillery in the absence of a battalion group anyway so they could take their own supporting battery. I agree that a truck or a portee mounted gun would be better for 7 Bde, but it doesn't look likely to happen unfortunately.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/9/2008 1:29:15 AM
Then again it is still important that 7 brigade can deploy in the light role, for which then need airportable guns. Can a portee mounted M777 be taken off and used in the light role?
 
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Volkodav       8/9/2008 2:11:31 AM
I believe the now cancelled supacat based portee used a standard M777 and had to dismount it to fire.  The whole package was easily Herk transportable and allegedly could be lifted by a D model Chook.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       8/9/2008 3:37:10 AM

I believe the now cancelled supacat based portee used a standard M777 and had to dismount it to fire.  The whole package was easily Herk transportable and allegedly could be lifted by a D model Chook.

I guess that makes the point moot then.
 
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