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Subject: A nation at war, but kept clear of combat
Volkodav    7/18/2008 11:29:25 PM
Patrick Walters, National security editor | July 19, 2008 WHEN Jim Molan came home in April 2005 after a year helping the US-led coalition run the war in Iraq, he was asked by his Canberra debriefers what was the most significant thing Australia could do to influence the way the war was being fought. Molan had just finished serving a hectic eight months as chief of operations to the US commander of the multinational force in Iraq, George Casey, which included planning the second battle for Fallujah in November 2004 and the successful general election the following January. "You should have replaced me with another Australian general," was the major-general's one-line answer to his Canberra interlocutor. Impressed with Molan's performance, Casey had made a specific request for another Australian to take over the chief of operations role but, as events in Iraq took a turn for the worse, Canberra politely declined the US commander's request. Molan has written a remarkable account of a turbulent year in Baghdad helping the Americans run the war. Working deep inside a command structure controlling 175,000 coalition troops, he had little to do with the 400-strong Australian military presence in Iraq. But Molan's book, Running the War in Iraq, poses some fundamental questions about the way our defence forces are being used in Iraq and Afghanistan and how prepared Australia's military will be for the wars of the 21st century. Compared with the complex counterinsurgency war Molan helped run in Baghdad, the Australian Defence Force, with the exception of its special forces, has not been involved in long-running, close-combat operations in Iraq or Afghanistan. Molan worries about how the ADF will effectively manage the "operational art" in the years ahead, conflicts that may demand Australia take the lead in planning, commanding and deploying joint forces on the battlefield. His experience in Iraq has caused him to doubt Australia's capacity to prosecute an effective counterinsurgency campaign in theatres that demand a complex mix of war-fighting, peacekeeping and humanitarian skills: the "three-block war". At the command level, he worries that the standard set by the ADF is skewed too far away from fighting towards humanitarian operations, peacekeeping and peace-making. Australia's war-fighting tradition has retained strengths at the lowest tactical level, but in Molan's view we have failed to keep abreast of conceptual debates and developments about how commanders use forces on a battlefield at the level above tactics. He notes that the ADF has not been involved in serious, joint sustained combat since Vietnam and has not practised "operational generalship" in a war since that time. "We in Australia luxuriate in what I describe as wars of choice within wars; we choose the wars we will fight in, we choose the timing of our participation, we choose the geographical areas of our participation (and so control the level of likely combat), we choose the kind of operations we will conduct and we choose when we come home," he says. As Molan tells Inquirer, Americans do not have that luxury in Iraq or Afghanistan. Australia may not have that luxury in the years ahead. "The Government is spending $50 billion buying excellent war-fighting equipment between now and 2018," he says. "But I don't think we are matching that with an attitude and an ethos of combat. We say it, but I don't see it being manifest in training at a higher level, and that concerns me." Iraq and Afghanistan should teach us the counterinsurgency struggle or "war among the people" is getting harder to win. If the extreme violence in Baghdad has taught Molan one thing, it is that militaries must be able to fight to win a long counterinsurgency campaign in addition to the provision of a range of non-military skills and assets. When Molan was in Baghdad, Americans would refer to "swimmers and non-swimmers": those nations willing to fight and die in Iraq and those just there to show the flag. "If you can't fight, then you will never get to the clever parts of counterinsurgency, which is the hearts and minds. Because it is the strategy of the enemy to get between you and the people. "If you are not strong enough and tough enough, you can't touch the hearts and minds of the people." When it comes to Afghanistan, Molan warns there is a gap "a mile wide" in terms of the Rudd Government's rhetoric about the importance of the Australia's military commitment and our presence on the ground in Oruzgan. "To be generous, we (NATO and its allies) have a quarter to half the number of troops that we need to make a fist of it. Not having enough troops means that it's going to be a long, long fight and that exposes your national resolve." Molan says the question of more Australian troops in Oruzgan is a matter for the Government but observes that a 52,000-strong ADF, now costing the taxpayer $22 billion a year, s
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Ho Hum, again   7/20/2008 6:04:51 AM
What a complete load of bollocks, those are obviously the words of somebody who has only ever wielded a stapler in the defence of Australia. I served with the sorts that you talk to on a daily basis and believe me when many of them espouse their views on the desirability of participating in combat to their troops, it is a different story to the one that you are relaying. One of the first things that was drummed into me in basic was that I should want to fight in a war or "why would we be doing all this training". I don't think you would have to look too far on related threads on the Australia board to see it echoed  by former serving personel here. You are undoubtedly recieving the version for public and political consumption of why they want to go to increase the commitment in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sorry sport. I have been shot at.  But you go for your life and make some more grand assumptions.  You're an ass. 
 

Blind freddy should be able to see that a major ground conflict is not to be viewed primarily as a training opportunity, we need a better reason to be send troops who signed up to defend Australia into a meat grinder than that. Lots of armies have to maintain their skills during extended periods of peace and then manage to do a good job when war comes around, which makes the messages of impending doom because we don't have conventional combat forces on operations in Afghanistan and Iraq is pure bullsh1t.

How about reading the good Generals comments properly.  How about reading what I said without going into automatic mode?


If you are so keen to see other Aussies going off to get killed then you should have signed up for a stint and risked having your own precious arse sent overseas to get shot off, instead of joining straight up to the public service :).
 
Again, another lesson in reading comprehension is in order.  make the effort to read and understand first.  As for me, I have been shot at overseas you tool - and I have no desire to get shot at again if I can help it.  As for my current situation, where the fuque does an amateur like you get off on bragging about their background let alone making assumptions about others.
 
Delusions of Grandeur? - have a look in the mirror muppet.  
 
BTW, if you want to question my courage feel free to email me at anytime, we can make it personal and resolve your opinions first hand.

 
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Aussiegunneragain       7/20/2008 6:56:17 AM
I've avoided your rubbish up until now.  Against my better judgement I decided that someone should respond to your drivel.  As for being in the know, a couple of people in here do know exactly where I work, so I'm sure they know that I have some form of qualification to comment.  I certainly have better currency and insight than you.  But, your comments as usual are full of sanctimonious tripe.  You go girl,  I'm sure you'll impress someone eventually
 
And,

Sorry sport. I have been shot at.  But you go for your life and make some more grand assumptions.  You're an ass. 

Ok, so you had a few spears thrown at your car when you were working with the Health Department in the Northern Territory and had a few rounds fly around your head on some other civilian overseas posting. That doesn't quite qualify as volenteering to fight in a war (not exactly the reason why people join the public service), but it is never the less give you some bragging rights (somewhat important to you I think) to tell to the grandkids. The big question is, wtf does it have to do with this discussion? The point that I was making is that in my experience and from other accounts such as this (news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=569651), many professional military personel do join the military because they want to go to war. Christ, even the then CGF acknowledged that;

"Lt Gen Leahy said he understood some soldiers wanted "a bit more of a go", but they had to understand war had changed.

"I know that the infantry have real basic skills, that they can do that traditional role of seek ... and kill and destroy.

"But we're not asking for that at the moment, that's not the environment we're in.""

If you have gained a different impression from your contact with them as a defence civilian then I would strongly suggest to you that you are having the wool pulled over your eyes.
 
As for the rest of your post, it is nothing more than a deliberate attempt to insult that characteristically dodges the issues. Your first post, which was in response to me expressing a legitimate opinion on military affairs (the purpose of this board after all) and which was not even directed at you wasn't much different. The fact that you address my post in a reasonable manner, just suggests to me that you still hold sour grapes because you made yourself look like a complete tw@t in a discussion with me a couple of months ago. I'm not terribly interested in carrying on a discussion with somebody who plays those games.
 
Also, even if I had your email address any more I wouldn't be contacting you for anything. If your claims about the type of work that you do are true then you are dangerously loose-lipped for such a job and I wouldn't be caught dead having anything to do with you privately.
 
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gf0012-aust       7/20/2008 6:57:13 AM

Aussiegunner Ho Hum Again

instead of publicly demonstrating the limit of your intellect on here you can take up my offer and stop boring everyone else to tears.
you question my courage, my integrity and my background - I reckon that gives me a fair option to call you out.
 
I'm in the Parl Circle, so you can even get free parking. 
 
It's your call shirley.
 
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Aussiegunneragain       7/20/2008 7:11:23 AM




Aussiegunner Ho Hum Again




instead of publicly demonstrating the limit of your intellect on here you can take up my offer and stop boring everyone else to tears.


you question my courage, my integrity and my background - I reckon that gives me a fair option to call you out.

 

I'm in the Parl Circle, so you can even get free parking. 

 

It's your call shirley.


 
Actually, you started this off by telling me that I didn't have a fracking clue despite the fact that you know that I have served in the ADF and continued with another tirade of insults, then you threw another tantrum when I called YOU out. As far as touching base with you I reiterate that I wouldn't be caught dead doing so even if you do only work within walking distance. Unless you are an Opposition advisor then you are a moron for talking about some of the things that you do on here. I know that a lot of your comment on certain topics that I am intimately involved with is bullsh1t as well but can't comment here because I choose to take my commitment to impartiality seriously, unlike your good self.

 
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gf0012-aust       7/20/2008 7:14:21 AM

Also, even if I had your email address any more I wouldn't be contacting you for anything. If your claims about the type of work that you do are true then you are dangerously loose-lipped for such a job and I wouldn't be caught dead having anything to do with you privately.


I don't want tea and biscuits nancy.  I thought you might have the courage to step outside the anonymity of the internet and give you the option of talking yourself up and maligning me in person.

another stellar example of you misunderstanding simple english.
 
feel free to point out what information has been inappropriately spilled on here and I'll buy you a slab of beer (straight after I thank you for all your kind words on here)
 
even for a failed journo you make dancing and dodging an art. :)
 
 
 
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Aussiegunneragain    PS   7/20/2008 7:18:39 AM
instead of publicly demonstrating the limit of your intellect on here you can take up my offer and stop boring everyone else to tears.
 
It is completly arrogant of you to presume to speak for what everybody else finds bording and to suggest that I should keep my legitimate opinions on this topic off this board. You may be predisposed to maintaining this site for cyber back-slapping between pompous gits like yourself,  but I like discussion and debate and I think that many others do as well. Put simply I'm saying piss off, I'll post what I like as long as Sysops is happy to let me. Nobody else needs to respond if they aren't interested.
 
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gf0012-aust       7/20/2008 7:26:31 AM

I know that a lot of your comment on certain topics that I am intimately involved with is bullsh1t as well but can't comment here because I choose to take my commitment to impartiality seriously, unlike your good self.

you see, there's a fundamental problem right here.  At least 3 people in here know exactly where I work, right down to my office loc and number, so they know full well I'm not spilling stories or colouring the truth, if I did they'd be all over my comments like free beer at a wharfies picnic. 
You OTOH, are a different bird altogether. 
 
I'm just peeling myself off the floor at your proclamation that you're impartial.....
 
btw, don't forget to tell me where I've breached on a public forum.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    GF   7/20/2008 7:27:37 AM

Right thats it, I'm not engaging further in this discussion. You are obviously only interested in engaging in a vindictive cyber pissing contest because you are still blaming me for your previous self-humiliation. As for telling you who I am, forget it.  I'm not so stupid as to get caught up with some fratured personality with a chip on his shoulder. You and anybody else here can call me a coward if you like but I'll just call it smart.
 
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gf0012-aust       7/20/2008 7:48:12 AM

It is completly arrogant of you to presume to speak for what everybody else finds bording and to suggest that I should keep my legitimate opinions on this topic off this board.
 
I don't seem to recall telling you to hold your opinions and refrain from using the board - perhaps you're confused with the direction you attempted to give to me?
 
You may be predisposed to maintaining this site for cyber back-slapping between pompous gits like yourself, 
 
Pompous git?  My my, we are in form.  I don't suppose you've bothered to check the tone and delivery of your regular opinions recently?
 
 but I like discussion and debate and I think that many others do as well.
 
I also appreciate decent discussion and debate, perhaps there is a message in there somewhere.  I get along swimmingly with everyone else - even when there are contrarian views.  None of us seem to take ourselves too seriously and get uppity at differing views.. I wonder if there is a message in there as well.... (rhetorical only)
 
 Put simply I'm saying piss off, I'll post what I like as long as Sysops is happy to let me.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of a private board.  As much as you seem to think its fine to order me about and invoke the ablution invective, it's actually none of your darn business about who posts and who can post on here - except for the board owners and mods (and you don't fall into either category). 
 
I will continue to post on here and pass comment - and you having a tanty because of it will not have any impact on my decision. In fact, on principle I'm determined to have my say more often. (don't you love self empowerment?)
 
Nobody else needs to respond if they aren't interested.  Was that another order to the chattering masses?  



 
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Aussiegunneragain       7/20/2008 8:01:35 AM
Put simply I'm saying piss off, I'll post what I like as long as Sysops is happy to let me.

You seem to misunderstand the nature of a private board.  As much as you seem to think its fine to order me about and invoke the ablution invective, it's actually none of your darn business about who posts and who can post on here - except for the board owners and mods (and you don't fall into either category). 
 
I will continue to post on here and pass comment - and you having a tanty because of it will not have any impact on my decision. In fact, on principle I'm determined to have my say more often. (don't you love self empowerment?)
 
Nobody else needs to respond if they aren't interested. 

Was that another order to the chattering masses?
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I suggest that you re-read the post that you were responding to after taking a cold shower. It might improve your english comprehension to the point where you can see that I was not telling you what you can and can't post here. Apology accepted in advance.

 
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