120mm AMS in Australian service

Military History \| How To Make War \| Wars Around the World	Rules of Use	How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Australia Discussion Board
Return to Topic Page

Subject: 120mm AMS in Australian service
BLUIE006 6/2/2008 4:45:13 AM

The 120 AMS (120mm Armored Mortar System) is a single barrel, smoothbore 120mm mortar turret suitable for integration on medium weight armored vehicles such as M113 and Piranha III. It is operated completely under armor featuring reduced recoil and semi-automatic loading system which makes possible integration on most types of wheeled and tracked vehicles. The 120 Armored Mortar System mortar-turret fires existing and planned 120mm mortar ammunition and can be employed for direct fire engagements as well as indirect fire engagements. A 7.62mm machine gun and smoke grenade launchers provide additional self-defense capability. h*tp://www.deagel.com/Weapon-Stations/120-AMS_a001428001.aspx The 120 AMS has been integrated on M113A4 and Piranha III 8x8 chassis and is currently in service with the armies of Saudi Arabia and Australia. Australia / 20 Saudi Arabia / 73 I had no idea ADF used 120 mortar?? Is this part of MINCS(L) AMP 48.36 – Army Mortar System Project The DMO site says its unapproved

Quote Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title Newest to Oldest

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 NEXT

Aussie Diggermark 2 6/2/2008 7:15:25 AM

We don't operate a 120mm mortar system of any kind. Deagal is one of THE most inaccurate defence websites around. Wiki is often more accurate...

I suspect they haven't updated their info since the 120mm AMS was dropped from the DCP in 2001...

Quote Reply

doggtag 6/3/2008 12:17:28 PM

Looking at many of the charts on deagel that "state" (suggest would be more appropriate) the various armor ratings, armaments, fuel efficiencies, users, and costs of numerous systems, that site always came across to me as little more than vague reference for some kind of role-playing game or something... D & D for war nerds.

Quote Reply

Milne Bay 6/5/2008 11:39:01 PM

AFAIK Australia's M113's only mount the 81mm mortar.

The 120mm is a much sought after capability but doesn't yet exist in Australia's ORBAT.

Others may be able to indicate if and when it will come to pass.

Quote Reply

Milne Bay 6/6/2008 12:04:15 AM

AFAIK Australia's M113's only mount the 81mm mortar.

The 120mm is a much sought after capability but doesn't yet exist in Australia's ORBAT.

Others may be able to indicate if and when it will come to pass.

Quote Reply

Volkodav 6/9/2008 1:08:29 AM

I wonder whether 120mm mortar systems will be revisited in the defence white paper?

Nemo might be a good fit, mounted on M-113 for 1 Bde and on Bushmaster or LAV for the other Brigades, maybe even a BV210 or BVS10 for supporting our light forces.

120mm could replace a number of 105mm guns aswell.

Quote Reply

Arty Farty 6/9/2008 11:44:49 PM

120mm could replace a number of 105mm guns aswell.

Concur.

Quote Reply

ThePuss 6/10/2008 5:04:10 AM

120mm could replace a number of 105mm guns aswell.

Concur.

AMS has a range of 10km and our current 105 MM guns have a range of over 17km. So while I support a purchase of a turreted 120 mortar system particularly for 2CAV and 2/14 QMI range may be a problem with replacing our 105's with a 120 mortar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L118_Light_Gun#M119A1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Mortar_System

Quote Reply

Aussie Diggermark 2 Re: ThePuss 6/10/2008 9:23:59 AM

The Hamel light guns only offer the 17k+ range when operating "charge super" (I believe, AG help me out on this...) which can only be fired in limited quantities because the barrels wear out too quickly.

Normal charges only have ranges up to 13k's or so.

The difference between a 12k ranged 120mm mortar (not counting "PGMs" which offer up to 19k ranges) and a 105mm gun (of the capability of OUR Hamel guns anyway, I know the 105's have a range of upgrades which offer significant benefits) is not all that significant in my humble opinion.

What is significant is Army doesn't WANT to operate 105mm pieces any longer and wants to consolidate it's artillery capability on 155mm.

Therefore a pretty cogent argument can be made for 120mm mortar to be added between existing 81mm mortars and the next generation 155mm arty that we will be acquiring.

Personally I'd consider something like the USMC"s new "trailer mounted" 120mm mortar, than a traditional "self propelled" or ground based mortar as a nice compromise. The range and lethality effects would still be there, but cost would be constrained in this tight budget environment we have inherited over the last 6 months...

It is the munitions that make the difference anyway and cheaper tubes means more PGM's can be had (hopefully) !

As to Army's intention to acquire a new Mortar system. It's still listed under the projects site of the DMO website under:

MINCS(L) AMP 48.36.

I would suggest that this project may be awaiting the outcomes of the White Paper, but apparently it's a heresy to suggest that capability development is stalled and awaiting the completion of the White Paper, according to the new regime...

Quote Reply

Aussiegunneragain AD 6/11/2008 10:17:04 AM

In response to your question, you are correct in saying that the Hamel Gun is capable of a 17.2km range only when using Charge Super. However, it is only capable of operating those rounds when the L-118 barrel is fitted. When I was with 1 Fd we used L-119's barrels which fired ex-Vietnam-era US ammunition. Basically we were using it up for training purposes because the British ammo was expensive, and the L-118 barrels were stored in the gun shed.

As such I've never seen a Hamel fired using Charge Super and am not terribly familiar with the ammo system, but I do recall somebody saying something to the effect that Super causes significant barrel wear (and in any case it makes sense that it would). However, I'd doubt that this would be of concern in a war. If they needed to fire the gun out to 17km then they would just do so and fly in another barrel when necessary. In peacetime you wouldn't do it too often, but it doesn't really matter because we mainly conducted live fire exercises as a training aid for the command post and forward observers and it doesn't matter to their purposes that we didn't fire to 17km. Shame though, because apparently the ground shakes when you set of a Super round ("I don't care what you play, just play it LOUD!!!) ;-) ).

Anyway, if they were making base bleed ammo and PGM's for the 105's I'd support rebarrelling them and beefing up their fire control system rather than going to 155mm towed gun, as I believe being able to provide intimate fire support at long ranges is important. However, the Pom's seem to have ditched their base bleed efforts and there are no 105mm PGM's to my knowledge, so it looks like the Hamel has run its course. 120mm mortars would be a good addition, but I agree with AD that we are unlikely to get additional capabilities in the current budgetary environment and also note that the extra capability would require extra manning which we can't afford. I think that between the 155mm's and 81mm's our troops should be ok though, even if it isn't an ideal fit.

Quote Reply

neutralizer 6/14/2008 4:10:37 AM

A certain amount of dodgy info here.

Max rg unassisted for L118 is indeed 17.2 km with Ch S. There is an assisted BB shell giving 20km on paper but report from UK shoots in hot and high conditions (trials) suggest closer to 22 km, however, the dispersion is probably horrible.

That said Ch 5 still gives 15 km. IIRC Ch S is 1 EFC and the barrel life is normally quoted as 10,000 EFC. UK also holds slightly over 1 spare barrel per gun, this is not a big deal. That said 52 cal 155 barrels are supposed to be good for 2500 EFCs but there are reports that it's a heap less, they're also very expensive, which is almost certainly why UK abandoned their 52 cal program for AS90 when it turned out the S African low wear propelling charges wouldn't meet insensitive ammo standards. When you think about this 52 cal may not be such a smart idea, it depends on what ammo is used in training and its EFC value, but on ops it could be real nasty.

The other point about L118 is its new ammo, not just the L51 Red Phos smk but the L50 HE with PBX fill and meeting insensitive ammo standards. BAE claims (and it obviously means the best target type for comparison) that L50 has the same lethality as 155mm M107. UK is currently upgrading their L118s including replacing steel platform and rock spades with titanium ones to reduce weight. They also plan to keep it in service until 2023, but a 50th anniversary in service in 2025 seems likely!

As I understand it Aust originally purchased 15,000 rds 105mm Fd Mk2 (which is what L118 uses) and the plan was for local production. However, this never eventuated for reasons that aren't at all clear but still seems to rile some people.

Quote Reply

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 NEXT