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Subject: 120mm AMS in Australian service
BLUIE006    6/2/2008 4:45:13 AM
The 120 AMS (120mm Armored Mortar System) is a single barrel, smoothbore 120mm mortar turret suitable for integration on medium weight armored vehicles such as M113 and Piranha III. It is operated completely under armor featuring reduced recoil and semi-automatic loading system which makes possible integration on most types of wheeled and tracked vehicles. The 120 Armored Mortar System mortar-turret fires existing and planned 120mm mortar ammunition and can be employed for direct fire engagements as well as indirect fire engagements. A 7.62mm machine gun and smoke grenade launchers provide additional self-defense capability. h*tp://www.deagel.com/Weapon-Stations/120-AMS_a001428001.aspx The 120 AMS has been integrated on M113A4 and Piranha III 8x8 chassis and is currently in service with the armies of Saudi Arabia and Australia. Australia / 20 Saudi Arabia / 73 I had no idea ADF used 120 mortar?? Is this part of MINCS(L) AMP 48.36 – Army Mortar System Project The DMO site says its unapproved
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Neutralizer   6/21/2008 2:46:20 AM

L118 is well balanced and easy to traverse on the platform.  It may be that use of L119 with its shorter barrel has coloured perceptions, even the heavier muzzle brake doesn't fully compensate for a shorter barrel. 

 UK finished converting all their Light Guns to digital, etc, sights in 2002 (this was the first such system on towed guns), including those in the TA and University OTCs (only a handful used to teach the basics to recruits retain optical sights (4 guns)). In essence this seems to have made them the first artillery to abandon optical sights.  The digital laying system has recently been upgraded to integrate with the MVR (on every gun), store MVs and give direct fire thru the telescope to 6km.

 If you were always towing with barrel reversed then your guns were out of date.  That's no longer needed, the A frame has been strengthened (long overdue in my view).

 My understanding of M777 is if you want to traverse beyond top traverse it involves quite a lot of work compared to any split trail gun.  I'd observe that one of the fortunate features of CORAL was that the M2A2 were pointing in the required direction not centre of arc, if they been in the latter the outcome could have been seriously nasty.  That said the one disadvantage of L118 is that if you use the platform then you need a fairly large diameter gun pit.  However, UK units in Afg seem to have pretty well stopped using the platform as was the case in Iraq where the actually fired from hardtop roads.  Something that hitherto I'd only associated with the better SPs. 

 Just going back to why UK abandoned their M777/Caesar acquisition.  I too have worked for more than one govt, and while cost is often an issue process is critical.  What's more both options probably had lower operating costs than AS90 and the quantities involved were actually peanut money.  The justification for M777/Caesar always seemed a bit
flaky to me, numbers seemed about 3 btys inviting the question why bother.  It's useful to note that M777/Caesar were in the Assessment Phase, the next step in the process is Initial Gate then Development, etc.  There's been no report that it actually got to Initial Gate.  This seems to mean that the Assessment concluded that basically they had
nothing useful to offer or capabilities they provided could be obtained by other more cost effective means or the capabilities weren't required.   Still, no doubt the assessment teams had lots of fun.

I actually think that M777 has potential, but it needs considerable rework and would increase in weight, although this doesn't matter in the real world.  It's attraction is that its compact.  Add a flick rammer and sliding block breech (for guaranteed burst fire), give a power option (for laying), which also helps the power supply challenge of the
electronics, enable it to traverse rapidly through 6400 on a sole plate (hydraulically assisted and could allow you to reduce top traverse) and you're starting to get something that might be worth having.  The extra weight would need better wheels unless you think portee is the way to go.

 Finally, 105mm Fd Mk 2 ammo, the reliable story seems to be that when USSR invaded Afg there was realisation in Canberra that Aust ammo stocks were unacceptably low, but L118 was too late to be added to the list of restoration stock building and the project was directed to insert it in parallel with gun production.  However, by 1983 the ammo pressure was off and the Fd Mk 2 ammo local prodcution was slipped a year.  In 1986 it would have cost $860,000 to start producing HE, smk and WP (which UK has never produced for themselves).  Several events in the project team coupled with tightening of defence expenditure because of no foreseen deployments, move of ammo manufacturing to Albury and US introduction of assisted 105mm put production into the infinite future.  (All rumours of royalty issues, etc are just that.) 


Some fair points about the L-119 vs L-118 rotating, I've never rotated an L-118 but I can imagine that the different barrel would make a difference. Its also good to hear that they have sorted out the A-Frame, rotating it was a massive pain in the arse. None of that changes my view that the M777 is the better system in its current, unmodified form though. The video that Herald posted clearly shows that it can be speed shifted at an acceptable rate and its other advantages make it too good a weapon to
 
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Aussiegunneragain    AE and Herald   6/21/2008 2:59:41 AM
Thanks for the vids, very informative. 
 
It is revealing if we imagine if the British Paras at Goose Green had been supported by M777's with Excaliber and supported by modern rangefinders and micro uav's, instead of the three L-118's that they flew to the battle. GG was less than 15 miles from San Carlos waters, so they would have been able to provide fire support directly from the landing sight rather than flying in the guns. That means that all the guns at San Carlo's would have been able to be used. Excalibur would have allowed the British to hit individual strong points and enemy artillery without exposing their own troops to fire beyond some probing to locate the positions. Basically the battle could have been largely won by the artillery alone!
 
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Herald12345    It was all ArtyEngineer.   6/21/2008 4:57:10 AM
Credit goes where it is due.
 
Herald

 
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gf0012-aust       6/21/2008 5:45:22 AM

Credit goes where it is due.

 Herald
IIRC AE works on the 777.  I seem to recall discussions he and I have had on it in the past.  When I was attached to an australian recoil management system project we used the problems of the 777 to hilight recoil issues.  at that stage (2001) it was buggering up the optics and splitting the spades after "nn" rounds had gone through...
 
it's come a long way since then....
 
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neutralizer       6/21/2008 6:59:59 AM
Currently 155mm is thee only game in town if you want gun launched PGM.  The problem is that its a very extreme environment for electronics and there's not a lot of space for mechanical engineering of control surface.
 
However, assisted projectiles probably have too much dispersion for effective use towards max range, and certainly for danger close targets!  This means guidance is important.  In recent months there seem to have been 2 important arty ammo developments out of UK involving live firing, Loitering Munitions (which solve the moving target problem and offer very fast response) and composite shell bodies, just 155mm so far.  These offer geater length so more payload and could make 105mm PGM wothwhile.
 
What I have real doubts about is whether towed 155mm is still a good idea, or it it past it's used by date.  This takes us to the nature of future ops, and this in turn is what the Aust Defence White Paper should be addressing.  There are 2 indicators of the future.  One is the USMC's relatively long standing '3 block war', which is a somewhat tactical view and perhaps obscures the higher level issue.  This was eloquently put by the UK CGS last week when he said the UK Army was currently working on restructure plans to abolish specialist bdes in order to deal the Major Cbt Ops and Stabilisation Ops not just seperately but also sequentially or even simultaneously. 
 
Although no one is too keen on the costs the reality is that if you want 155mm then SP is the best solution, and I mean proper tracked  6400 mil shooting turreted SPs.   Its the ammo that is the issue and its weight, this is why lightweight 155mm is a bit of a trip down fantasy lane for almost all nations, shifting the gun is the easy bit, for the ammo you need some serious and guaranteed Chinook or Sea Stallion capability.  The fact is that dumb ammo is going to be around for a while, smoke and illum for starters, but dumb HE suppresses, even if it's a bit big for comfort if it's close to own troops.  Concentrations of dumb HE (and the modern hi capacity 155 HE like L15 and it's more recent US equivalent offer this, particularly when used with multifunction fuzes with HoB options) are also good for area targets and for those just out of sight, for historians look at the tk cas suffered by the GE pz corps at Medennine when they tried to regroup in dead ground (of course their armour wasn't much more than lt AFVs today), although its true UAVs should solve this type of problem.  The Israeli use of dumb 155 HE to break up attacks in 1973 is a more recent example.
 
Lots of folk think Illum is past its used by date, events over the last few yrs indicate this is nonsense.  Eg the Aust arty tp (L118) with 7 RHA in Afg has fired almost entirely illum in their first month (in spt of the DA BG ni ops).  UK guns fired a 5 km linear illum over Basra for most of one ni in 2003.  AS90 only fired illum in Kosova and L118 seems to have only fired illum in Sierra Leone.  Current ops also seem to be using quite a lot of smk. The biggest problem in FI was not having sufficient airburst fzes.  Terrain was terrible for impact fzes.
 
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Aussiegunneragain    Neutralizer   6/21/2008 7:53:33 AM
Although no one is too keen on the costs the reality is that if you want 155mm then SP is the best solution, and I mean proper tracked  6400 mil shooting turreted SPs.   Its the ammo that is the issue and its weight, this is why lightweight 155mm is a bit of a trip down fantasy lane for almost all nations, shifting the gun is the easy bit, for the ammo you need some serious and guaranteed Chinook or Sea Stallion capability.  The fact is that dumb ammo is going to be around for a while, smoke and illum for starters, but dumb HE suppresses, even if it's a bit big for comfort if it's close to own troops.  Concentrations of dumb HE (and the modern hi capacity 155 HE like L15 and it's more recent US equivalent offer this, particularly when used with multifunction fuzes with HoB options) are also good for area targets and for those just out of sight, for historians look at the tk cas suffered by the GE pz corps at Medennine when they tried to regroup in dead ground (of course their armour wasn't much more than lt AFVs today), although its true UAVs should solve this type of problem.  The Israeli use of dumb 155 HE to break up attacks in 1973 is a more recent example.
 
Lots of folk think Illum is past its used by date, events over the last few yrs indicate this is nonsense.  Eg the Aust arty tp (L118) with 7 RHA in Afg has fired almost entirely illum in their first month (in spt of the DA BG ni ops).  UK guns fired a 5 km linear illum over Basra for most of one ni in 2003.  AS90 only fired illum in Kosova and L118 seems to have only fired illum in Sierra Leone.  Current ops also seem to be using quite a lot of smk. The biggest problem in FI was not having sufficient airburst fzes.  Terrain was terrible for impact fzes.
 
Of course SP is the best solution if you can deploy it. However in the terrain in our region there are many areas where you can't, which is why you need towed guns as well as SP's. I know we will still be using dumb ammo but with PGM's we will  need less of it. Also, while I have not operated any 155mm equipment, I'd imagine that the effects of 155mm smoke an illum rounds last longer than for 105mm, offsetting the extra weight of the ammo.We have half a dozen Chinooks and we are substantially upgrading our medium lift helecopter capability with 40 or so NH-90's, so it would be quite reasonable for us to commit most of the Chinooks to ammo resupply for these guns and have the NH-90's undertake the bulk of the other transport and resupply tasks. For the small number of guns that we would deploy on any operation (maybe 4 batterys) that number of Chinooks would be more than adequate. Given that we also have a small army in general they are likely to be spread thinly, so the extra range of the M777 to support them will allow our army to operate more effectively over a larger area.
 
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neutralizer       6/22/2008 3:27:40 AM
Lets explore the terrain issue.  In the mid 1960s there were lots of people in the Aust Army proclaiming that MBTs couldn't be used in SE Asia, the Cents were sent to SVN and worked fine.  In WW2 UK produced 2 mountain regts complete with mules (Basuto muleteers and Brit gunners) for use in Italy because of the mountainous terrain.  In the event they weren't really needed because normal arty was always within range to provide support.
 
If you can get trucks there you can get tracked SPs there (and they'll also get to places that trucks won't, which isn't too useful if that's how you move your ammo).  The only limitation is weak bridges, but that's why armies have combat engineers.  The other point is that without roads (or at least surfaces that vehicles can use) there isn't going to be much by way of military operations, and what there are are going to be relatively low intensity.  We're also now talking jungle (what's left of it, plenty of logging tracks used by big trucks), so PGMs probably aren't going to be much use anyway (precisely locating targets is always difficult, in the J its next to impossible and arty is going to be used at close range where 155mm is not such a good idea.
 
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Herald12345    Some things.   6/22/2008 5:18:04 AM
1. Swamp, hummock mountains,l steep hills,  bog, and boulder strewn terrain.
2, Soft desert-Qatara Depression for example
3. Movement from ship to shore-a certifiable Australian requirement if you have a brew up in the Island groupd around you.. 
4. COSTS.
 
Ammunition can be trucked in or heloed in on top of a hill. What  you cannot do is drive a truck up the side of a cliff or a grade greater than 70 degrees with a load of ammunition SAFELY.
 
The enemy can block you on the ground or the beach, but if you hold the air you can fly in your artillery behind him to ruin his day.
 
The M-777 had a specific design purpose, that even a tyro like me can figure out. 
 
Herald  


 
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BLUIE006       6/22/2008 5:51:55 AM
Hence the reason AMOS Self propelled(wheeled) and towed mortar fit quite nicely for South- East Asia, add a few odd HIMARS(GMLRS) and you have most bases covered for our battlespace.. all C-130J transportable .... with a wide spectrum of conventional and precision capabilities ....
 
Over the next few years 120 mm Mortar will begin to receive guided munitions and GMLRS munitions will continue to evolve to cover a broader spectrum of missions....
 
Will still have M198 with Excalibur and K9 Thunder...  for conventional (155mm) artillery duties and mechanized warfare in Middle East or DOA scenario ......
 
Rapid reaction regional assistance missions seem allot more likely than... Mechanized warfare ? 
 
Would instant mobile fire support via 120 SP Mortar and precision strike via HIMARS be valued in these rapid reaction missions you think? 
 
 
120 MM AMOS Mortar (Self-propelled)
120 MM Mortar (towed/air dropable)
M198 Upgraded (Smart munitions)  - eventaully replaced by M777 in future phases.....
K9 Thunder
HIMARS
 
 
 
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       6/22/2008 5:58:33 AM
we don't have a requirement for towed, tracked and tyred arty.
 
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