Our Super Hornets. How many will we get?

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Subject: Our Super Hornets. How many will we get?
hairy man 4/30/2008 5:50:06 AM

From article in The Australian.. 30/4/08. "It's likely the Orme review will confirm that the best outcome for Australia's future air requirements is a mixture of JSF and Super Hornets. How many and what mix will be the crux of the debate" I believe that the order for 24 FA18E/F consists of 18 2 seaters, 6 single seaters.(Not sure which is E or F.) I would say we will end up with a squadron of each, plus a small amount of Growlers, 4 - 6. Anyone with any better ideas?

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DropBear DA 5/19/2008 3:46:58 AM

Such as?

It seems that the Taranis will be one of the few UAV/UCAV's to be designed to actually defend itself from other A2A threats. Something that other X-UCAV's have not previously shown to date IIRC.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/tanaris/

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Herald12345 5/19/2008 4:23:28 AM

Such as?

It seems that the Taranis will be one of the few UAV/UCAV's to be designed to actually defend itself from other A2A threats. Something that other X-UCAV's have not previously shown to date IIRC.

The X-47B is designed with passive and active countermeasures capability. The Tanaris appears similar.

Taranis link.

From what I can see, the BAE device will be very like the Northrop UCAS demonstrator with a pair of internal bomb bays, and a similar performance profile.

X-47B.

Herald

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Aussiegunneragain DB 5/19/2008 6:08:45 AM

What possible scenario would see Oz doing a first day strike on a major adversary without ANY friendlies, that would possibly warrant an F-35 only to have SH used in subsequent sorties?

To determine that you would need a crystal ball covering the next 35 years, which is the time that whatever we buy is likely to be in Australian service. Anything can happen over that timeframe, especially in a region industrialising as fast as ours. They thought that WW1 would be the war to end all wars in 1918 but they were proven somewhat wrong in 1939, hey.

Problem is though that the F-35A/B and SH drop almost identical munitions and have similar flight profiles/mission capabilities. Operating all these types in the same role is like running a corporate fleet with Mitsubishi 380, Crapadore, Falcon and Avalon. You only need one of them.

They carry the same munitions but the F-35 can carry more of them to a given range and it will be much more survivable thanks to stealth. It will also have a considerable overall range advantage and will have more advanced onboard systems (though admittedly those might be upgraded on later models of the SH). Even if we choose to buy smaller numbers of F-35's to keep the costs down to the same level as an all SH buy, we end up with a more capable and survivable fleet.

We should be working on the principle that we buy the best kit that we can afford without distorting the overall capability of the ADF. The F-35 fits that mould. It would be pretty crappy for a Squadron Leader at war in 2025 to have to write to the parents of a young pilot who was just killed when he flew his F-18E through a pop-up radar-guided SAM trap and say "we could have had him in an F-35 that the radar wouldn't have detected, but they didn't sign up for it in 2009 because they couldn't concieve of a scenario where it would be needed".

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Volkodav 5/19/2008 6:30:33 AM

As an interesting aside Janes has reported that Canada is considering dropping their plans to order 80 F-35A's and go for 65 F-35C's as its larger wing, stronger structure and landing gear make it more suitable for the harsh environment they will be operating them in. I suppose the thinking is 65 C's will last longer than 80 A's.

Another interesting tid bit is that the USN is looking to deploy their first carrier based UCAV sqn in 2025 and they see what ever this is going on to replace the SH in service and suplement the F-35C.

Sorry if this is old news to any of you but if these plans do come to pass it may affect the thinking behind some of the decissions Australia is yet to make.

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Volkodav 5/19/2008 6:44:17 AM

Crapadore? Dont get me started. lol. the 380 is by far the worst of that bunch and falcons a basically taxis. I never held Mitsubishi's (more like bits are missing) in high regard... Other than the patrol, which was unique.

After a decade and a bit in the Automotive and Automotive Components industry I jumped ship to defence, I tell people its because its a growing industry with many opportunites but the sad truth is that if i had stayed in Automotive too much longer my knowledge of just how Cr@p some cars are would leave me with nothing on the market I felt safe buying.

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DropBear Quite. 5/19/2008 6:46:51 AM

My point wasn't why do we need the F-35, it was why operate F-35 and SH in the RAAF side by side.

If you are going to buy 50-60 odd F-35, then you don't need to operate 30-40 odd SH as well.

Several posters have suggested it would be good to operate these types together. My argument is that they do the same thing and operate the same munitions, therefore you only need one platform type.

Not arguing the validity of using the F-35 when we eventually come to singlehandedly invading mainland China, just that you don't need to operate two tactical strike jets lobbing SDB, JDAM, GBU etc etc etc when they both do the same.

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Aussiegunneragain 5/19/2008 7:05:38 AM

My point wasn't why do we need the F-35, it was why operate F-35 and SH in the RAAF side by side.

If you are going to buy 50-60 odd F-35, then you don't need to operate 30-40 odd SH as well.

Several posters have suggested it would be good to operate these types together. My argument is that they do the same thing and operate the same munitions, therefore you only need one platform type.

We need them both because we need an F-111 replacement from 2010 and an F-18A replacement from 2014-17, and the F-35 won't be available to meet the first requirement. Beyond that I agree that we should ultimately replace the SH's, be it with F-35's or UCAV's like Taranis or the X45/47, but I don't see that happening until early in the '20's when those types become available.

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hairy man 5/19/2008 7:21:16 AM

I have read where the Block II version of the F18/E-F has 65% capability of the F35. The F35 will not be available with full stealth to 2018 apparently. By then the Block III F18 E/F should be available, which would undoubtably take it closer to the F35. Another point, are we going to get a fully capable F35, or a reduced export version as was being touted some time ago? If the reduced version, I wonder how the F18 E/F would compare?

In any case, I agree that they are too close in capabilities. We need something entirely different for a second aircraft. The only thing around at the moment that appeals to me is the Su34., but no way will we comtemplate that one because it is Russian. A pity though.

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gf0012_aust 5/19/2008 7:36:41 AM

or a reduced export version as was being touted some time ago?

we're not getting a reduced export version.

The only thing around at the moment that oto me is the Su34., but no way will we comtemplate that one because it is Russian. A pity though.

No it's not a pity.

why would we bother to jeopardise all of our existing technology exchange agreements?

why would we compromise our logistics footprint?

why would we incur another logistics burden?

why would we reduce interoperability with all of our principle allies?

why would we buy a platform that is conceptually designed to fight a prev war and is not a fit in our requirements?

why would we buy a platform when we know how much grief the indians and malays have had with the legacy platform (even if the indians don't like publicly admitting how much they get screwed on engine turnover and replacements - ie 4 times the engine maint turnover rate of the Malay hornets?

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Aussiegunneragain HM 5/19/2008 7:36:47 AM

I have read where the Block II version of the F18/E-F has 65% capability of the F35.

Who from. If it is Boeing I'd take it with a grain of salt.

The F35 will not be available with full stealth to 2018 apparently.

I haven't heard anything to that effect. From what I can gather the capabilities that will be left off the early marks are to be electronics related, with early marks being able to be upgraded when these capabilities emerge.

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