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Subject: National Guard going to Iraq for occupation duty?
Shaka of Carthage    6/29/2003 6:35:46 PM
I’m posting this in the Iraq and Paramilitary categories, since I’m not sure how many of you check both sections. Also, let me briefly explain the Marine terms so you are not confused. MEF is the Marine Expeditionary Force. It’s a Marine division, Marine Air Wing and support units. MEB is a Marine Expeditionary Brigade, being a Marine Regiment, equivalent air and support units. MEU is a Marine Expeditionary Unit, being a Marine Battalion, equivalent air and support units. The US has a problem in Iraq, that hasn’t really been talked about. We have run out of troops and this is going to cause some problems for occupation duty. US Army has 10 active divisions, 2 Armored Cavalry Regiments and 2 Independent Brigades (11.3 divisions). US Marines have 3 active divisions in 3 MEFs. Btw, I am not sure about the 1st ID and I can’t find where the 3rd Brig of the 25th ID is, so if you have that information, I would appreciate the update. We sure could use some “Shaka Dragoons” to chase the Taliban across the Pakistan border right about now (hint, hint). WHERE ARE THEY NOW? United States (4 divs) 1st Cav, 10th Mtn (2 Brigs), 25th ID (2 Brigs), 1 Brig 82nd AB, 172nd (Alaska) 3 Stryker Brigades: 1 from 2nd ID, 1 from 25th ID, 1 from 10th Mtn. The 4th Stryker Brigade (2nd ACR) is stuck in Iraq and the 5th Stryker Brigade is Nat’l Guard. Peacekeeping in Yugo? (1 div) 1st ID Afghanistan (.3 div) 1 Brig of 82nd AB Korea (.6 div) 2nd ID (2 Brigs) Iraq (5.3 divs) 3rd ID, 4th ID, 1 Brig of 82nd AB, 101st AA, 1st AD, 2nd ACR, 3rd ACR, 173rd AB Brig. British have about a division in Iraq as well. Marines (we are, after all, in the era of “jointness”) Less than a division left in the I MEF that is still in Iraq. II MEF has a couple of MEUs afloat in the Atlantic. The II MEB I think has been stood down (used to be in Iraq). III MEF is in the Pacific, backup for Korea, as well as providing the Pacifc MEUs. We have 7.3 Army divisions deployed. Where are the replacements for rotation coming from? One of the 10th Mtn Brigades will replace the 82nd Brig in Afghanistan soon. 1st Cav is getting “digitized” and along with the 172nd Brig is the backup for Korea if there are problems there. I’m not sure, but I think the 2 brigades of the 25th are the rotation units for the 2nd ID brigades. That leaves 5 brigades, 1 from 82nd, 1 from 10th Mtn, and the 3 Stryker Brigades for Iraq. Ignoring the Stryker Brigade already scheduled for Iraq, that’s 1.6 divisions available for rotation. Also the 2nd Marine Division in the II MEF could be used. Poland is sending a Division to arrive in Iraq in July. I would assume that would relieve the 3rd ID, which have been there the longest (and where supposed to go home when the 1st AD arrived). Ukraine is sending 2000 troops, Spain ? and India a division? That would allow another div or so to go home. That leaves me with 3.3 divisions in Iraq that the US needs to rotate and replace. Some unlucky unit among those 3.3 is going be in Iraq almost 2 years before being relieved unless some changes are made soon. Not to mention, the good ole “individual replacement system” will start having to send green weenies directly to Iraq once they get done with their training. What kind of changes can we make? There is the usual, like building up the Iraq police force. Want to get real creative, you could almost overnight, reconstitute the Iraq Army divisions. The equipment and manpower is already there, and we are paying them anyway. It would also counter the “Army” approach offered below. The “Army” Solution The 24th and 7th Infantry Divisions (National Guard) are going to be activated for occupation duty in Iraq. There are eight (8) other NG divisions, but some of those HQ units are already doing peacekeeping duties, as well as some of the personnel from the units. The 24th and 7th are the ones that have active Army headquarters. It doesn’t have combat support and service support units, but worse case you could scratch them together from existing ad hoc units. It will take about three (3) to six (6) months to get them ready. But if you just concentrate on the “peacekeeping” aspects of the mission, three (3) months is not out of the question. You could even send company and battalion sized units overseas sooner if you had to. But talk about a political cost. Especially, since this would validate the “Army” viewpoint that it doesn’t have enough manpower, making the Rumsfield viewpoint “wrong”. I welcome your comments.
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macawman    3rd Bde (Styrker) 25th Div at Ft Lewis   6/30/2003 1:27:59 AM
"The realignment plan also calls for inactivating three combat brigades. The 194th Armd. Bde. at Fort Knox, Ky., and the 3rd Bde. of the 25th Inf. Div. at Schofield Barracks, Hawaii, will inactivate by September 1995. And at Fort Lewis, Wash., the 7th Inf. Div.'s 1st Bde., also known as the 9th Inf. Regimental Combat Team, will be realigned as the 3rd Bde. of the 25th Inf. Div." (Two Bdes at Schofield and the 3rd Bde. at Ft. Lewis.) The 2nd ACR is not Styrker equiped yet. They are a Humvee equiped. One of the Styrker Bde's at Ft. Lewis is due to rotate to the "sand box" soon.
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AlbanyRifles    RE:3rd Bde (Styrker) 25th Div at Ft Lewis   6/30/2003 7:37:29 AM
Actually, the 3rd Brigade is at FT SHafter, HI and the 1 Brigade is the Stryker brigade at FT Lewis Also, 1 ID has a brigade in Kosovo, one in Germany and one at FT Riley, KS. The CS & CSS units for the 7th ID & 24th ID will come from a mix of AC/RC corps support units. You are right about it validating Shinseki's comments to Congress. Gee, maybe some of those Army generals know what they are talking about!
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Thomas    RE:National Guard going to Iraq for occupation duty?   6/30/2003 8:29:42 AM
Denmark had the same experience in "extemporising". It has gotten so bad, that regulars are starting to refuse foreign postings. The army has a real problem as they are recruiting among conscripts - which after their national service has no desire whatsoever for more of that cup of tea. The short term contracts have a very big problem filling the need - thus they return to the regulars. Worse is that during the assignment a private may be promoted to corporal (functioning as a sergeant) - a rank he is promptly stripped of when he returns. He is good enough as an NCO during active service; but barrack loitering obviously demand extra training. the system hasn't caught on to the demands of "peace-keeping".
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ChrisWI    RE:National Guard going to Iraq for occupation duty?   6/30/2003 3:09:55 PM
I dont know what should be done, but we have to do something or else that unlucky unit might rebel to go home.
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:NG going to Iraq for occupation duty? ... replies   6/30/2003 6:47:58 PM
Thanks for the information on the units. I have to update my lists. Not only does it validate Shinskei, it also validates Whites(?) defense of Shinskei. Look what it got them. In the last month (?) there have been some comments by them that were not very flattering. Not to mention, that when Shinskei retired, no Rumsfield or his exec. High level politics going on. Notice how those "US led peacekeeping force, made up by various nations, but not answer to the UN" have resurfaced again? Did you hear the latest one, about 20% of the military CSS functions going to civilians? Thats what, 25,000 manpower slots in the Army? In effect, you are gonna get a manpower increase without there being a manpower increase. Gotta love politics. And don't forget they are gonna move some of the "peacekeeping" type units (Civil Affairs, MPs) out of the reserves into the active component, at the same time standing down some heavy units by putting them into the reserves. I told you the Stryker is gonna replace the M1/Bradleys. ChrisWI The thing about a unit having to be there a couple of years, especially when we lose on average a man a day so far, is that you get very gun shy and thats when mistakes can happen. One major mistake, and all the goodwill thats built up will mean nothing. Such is the struggle for "hearts and minds".
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AlbanyRifles    RE:NG going to Iraq for occupation duty? ... replies   7/1/2003 6:53:09 AM
Absolutely, Rumsfeld is at war with the Army. And while it was an insult to Shinseki no DOD presence, I believe he wanted it that way. The Army Times reported that Shinseki was able to speak with the gloves off (or bark on!) I support the civilianizing a lot of military positions. For example, I work at FT Lee, VA. There are a lot of military folks who are running things which could very easily be done by either a government civilian or contract personnel. Why does the post engineer need to be a LTC? Why can't that be GS-14? The provost marshall is Major? I believe MPs should be in tactical units, only. Chief of Police on military installations can be DOD civilian police. Enlisted MPs should have M-16s, SAWs and MK-19s, not radar guns. Stryker is an interim solution to Future Combat System. M1s & M2s need to transform, but I don't see all heavy going to Stryker. Many will go from M1/M2 to FCS in about 10 - 15 years.
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AlbanyRifles    RE:NG going to Iraq for occupation duty? ... replies   7/1/2003 7:00:08 AM
Hey, forgot the title of this thread. As I mentioned on the Shaka's Light Airborne Dragoon Guards (whatever) thread, there are already 7 battalions of NG infantry in Iraq/Kuwait and some of those guys are already doing some security work in SE Iraq. And as for NG divisions doing th ework, GREAT! The have taken over the Bosnia mission for several years now and have done a good job (29th DIV, 34th DIV, 35th DIV, 49th ARMD DIV). Think they can do the job.
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:NG going to Iraq for occupation duty? ... AlbanyRifles   7/1/2003 8:42:21 AM
29th, 34th, 35th and 49th ... These are in Bosnia now? Or just parts of them? It has to be small elements of them.
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AlbanyRifles    RE:NG going to Iraq for occupation duty? ... AlbanyRifles   7/1/2003 9:14:58 AM
Each of those National Guard divisions have provided the controlling division HQ and most of the ground brigade in Bosnia for the last 2 or 3 years. 29 ID (VA, MD & MA ARNG) is turning over the HQs to 34 ID this August. What we are starting to see is that the NG division HQs haven't had a division mission since end of CW (no reinforcement to NATO). Have worked hard to pick up this mission from the AC....have done a good job. The Army has depended more on the enhanced separate brigades than the full divisions (totally separate units). What I am saying is, with a bit of training, those NG divisions should be able to do the mission.
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:NG going to Iraq for occupation duty? ... AlbanyRifles   7/1/2003 12:14:34 PM
Ok... so let me be clear, since I plan to run with this idea in the future. This is what you've just told me. The National Guard Division, for peacekeeping missions, can provide a DIVHQ and composite Brigade. Assume this is a one year tour. We are currently proving that point in the Balkans today. Correct?
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