I believe it didn't happen.My teachers never said there is no genocide.They said they don't believe it,but in the same time they think it should be discussed. I saw a lot of fake pics and films about genocide shot in early 1900s.They seemed like propogands.Why would people do them.Because it is a lie and they need proofs.And people,please tell me why Ottoman government would do it?Why should we kill our brothers that lived in peace with us all those years.Armenians were known as the most ally minority in empire. Scratchie is right.Nobody will change his/her mind.The fact is,everybody thinks that the weak is right.Now i wonder what GoG thinks.

>> One question for anyone who believes that this happened. What would happen if Turkish gov't admitted the genocide? << the answer is: "the same thing that is happening today: nothing"

thanks. i have no stake in the issue either way. i just wish to learn what happened. even if turkey decided to label the event 'genocide', it would not hurt you. the turks have always been famous as intermediaries and negotiators. turkey is at the crossroads of continents and the turks are famous for their hospitality and for being cultured and well-educated. if they were to admit to the events and use the "G word", i don't think it would hurt them nor would the world think worse of them. however, as kane has mentioned, perhaps you do have internal enemies or political issues that i am unaware of and perhaps there are political issues at stake here. in indonesia we frequently resort to bloody crackdowns because of internal dissent/unrest. many of these are not reported in the west. sometimes they are along ethnic lines, sometimes along religious lines. after the fall of sukarno in the late 1960s over 1,000,000 were slaughtered for being 'communist' though many were slain solely for being chinese. most of the killings were carried out by the blade as the army and police did not have the bullets to kill so many... it was a bloody matter. bottom line: i am not the one to preach to turkey about its behaviour for controlling internal dissent.... but there is no need to deny it. it is part of history and it is a very dangerous thing to change the past for ulterior motives... it does a great injustice to the dead... and to the living.

my opinion is unimportant... we've only scratched the surface of this debate. your opinion is more important. i started this debate to try and make you see things from a different angle. too many people on SP simply mindlessly echo their country's point of view without any independent thought. i was hoping to show you that there is another way, that the highest form of intelligence is someone who can criticize himself and his country, see his flaws and learn from them... consider that....!

VV, i have gained new respect for you: where did you come by all that info? all those names especially show you have done a lot of research. are you of armenian descent or just a researcher (or both)?

> are you of armenian descent Yes I am, my first name and surname are quintessential Armenian names. My grandfather witnessed his community being massacred when he was age 8. Through blind luck after living off boiled grass furnished by a few old women who escaped nearby he ended up stowing away on a ship by being hidden in a mail bag. He snuck onto another ship in the Med, which later lost its engine and drifted into Canadian waters. After two years with French-Canadian nuns at an orphanage my grandfather had had enough and stowed away on a train headed for the steel mills in Lowell, Massachussetts. He was employed as a child laborer to sweep the inside of the mill ductworks due to his dimunitive stature. During this time he taught himself english and mathematics (math runs in our family), and he became a Golden Gloves boxing champion in Lowell, flyweight division. It was a tough boomtown. Subsequently he enlisted in the US Navy, continuing his self-studies. Eventually my grandfather was awarded a coveted position as a radio operator, radio was a new military technology then, onboard a navy ship. He also became fleet boxing champion in the flyweight division. After six years and having saved his pennies, my grandfather left the navy with an honorable discharge. He boarded a train for Ann Arbor, Michigan and took a battery of sixteen tests administered over several days in an attempt to gain admittance to the University of Michigan. At the time, Michigan was one of only a few universities that would accept a person who had not received any formal education, provided the person could pass the battery of tests. My grandfather passed with high scores. He worked his way through at the local haberdashery (where I, as a student, later bought clothes), served as the “old man” captain of the U-M boxing team (I hold his yearbook which shows this), sang in Gilbert & Sullivan productions, and founded a fraternity which later colonized to thirteen states because the existing fraternities at the time would not accept an ethnic “darkie.” My grandfather graduated and went into business with a fraternity brother of his who was of Italian descent (another “darkie”). He achieved considerable financial success in part by forsaking the pleasantries of life. At age forty eight, my grandfather married a beautiful twenty six year old and they had four sons together. Due to his childhood trauma, my grandfather only grew to be 5’2” tall. Each of his sons grew be to over 6’0” tall. My grandfather was diagnosed with lung cancer and told he would die four months before his first grandchild was to be born. I believe the cancer probably resulted from exposure to carcinogens when he was a kid cleaning out the steel mill ductworks. In any event my grandfather ended up surviving nine days after his first grandchild was born. While in his hospital bed, my grandfather painted the grandchild’s first name on a pair of minature boxing gloves before he died. These gloves are the most important possession I own as the first grandchild in my family - aside from my first name, which is my grandfather’s Armenian name. So now you know a tiny slice of me and my family, non-hyphenated Americans of Armenian descent. I posted this to give you context, as the Armenian Genocide did happen. v^2

did he tell your father who did it??Who were the killers,the angry Turkish mob or Turkish troops??(asking seriously for me to see reality)

My grandfather was a young kid at the time (age 8). He couldn’t (at least he didn’t) make the discrimination you suggest. I leave that issue to the genocide historians. v^2

thank you for that, vv. surely, the most interesting part of this thread and one of the most interesting things i've ever read on SP, in fact. it also gives a personal side to this discussion. i'm sure your grandfather would be proud of you... he seems like quite an interesting man.

Coming from a badger to a wolverine, I second GoG's comments. Your grandfather's story is one of the most fascinating and inspirational that I've EVER read. A remarkable man, across the board!