Hey guys. I'd like to join this argument. Imagine this: "Let's say the United States of America is on her last legs. The whole world has gotten jealous of this only superpower of the world and has decided to gang up on her, before she really gets too big for her britches. War is being fought on every front. Manpower and resources are at a minimum, the country's infrastructure is crumbling, and famine, disease and poverty face most people every day. Mexico figures it's about time to pay back the gringos for stealing some southwestern states way back when. Mexico figures an effective strategy would be to hit the embattled U.S. army from the back. Mexico appeals to the sizable Armenian community in California... promising the Armenian-Americans half of California, when California is "liberated"... making it "New Armenia." The opportunistic Armenian-Americans rejoice. They know the other "New Armenia" which is known as "Armenia" (New, because Armenia barely existed as a non-vassal, independent country before the 20th Century, save for periods of Russian weakness) is turning out to be a disaster as a nation... so many people have been emigrating out of Old New Armenia. Wouldn't it be great to start anew with New New Armenia? Quickly, the Armenian-Americans arm themselves. Loyal Armenian-Americans don't want anything to have to do with the treacherous plan... after all, they have lived and prospered in the U.S.A., the land they love... but they fully know the historic price for non-compliance with Armenian revolutionaries, so most of the loyal ones also go along (albeit unwillingly). The revolting Armenians harass the U.S. Army's supply lines, and engage in hit and run tactics... sometimes engaging in full blown battles, the rare times they can stomach facing American soldiers. Meanwhile, Armenian leaders figure it would be wise to clear out Southern California of their fellow Americans, so that New Armenia can be as ethnically pure as possible. With many of the men away at war, villages are easy pickings, as American women, children and older men are mercilessly murdered. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE PEOPLE'S RESPONSE WOULD BE? Given the dogmatic nature of many Americans... the kind who violently took out their furies on Iranian-Americans during the hostage crisis, say... you can bet the local Americans would get plenty steamed over what their fellow Americans of Armenian origin treacherously decided to embark upon during America's dark hour. You can bet notions of civility would be rare to find among Americans whose beloved family members have been systematically slaughtered by the Armenians. Let's say the American government realizes something must be done to stem the horrible hemorrhaging caused by the Armenian Benedict Arnolds. The government is aware that the cycle of hatred has grown out of control, as reprisals for each massacre turns out to be yet another massacre. WHAT DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE WOULD BE? The government decides to relocate the Armenians far away from the area of calamity. Since so many Armenians are sympathetic to the cause of "New Armenia," it would be impossible for the government to separate the loyal Armenians from the disloyal... especially during desperate wartime, where resources and manpower are scarce. So the American government rounds up all the Californian Armenians and forces them to march part of the way to South Dakota. (Unfortunately, the European and Chinese militias have blown up most of the rails and roadways, and the few operating trains and vehicles need to be prioritized for the war effort.) With manpower so scarce, few soldiers are assigned to protect the Armenians during the march. Some of them can't find it in their hearts to forgive the Armenians' betrayal, and take it out on the innocent Armenians. However, most of the American soldiers are noble, and do the best they can to give the food and medicine allocated to them, and to protect the Armenians from blood-feuding fellow citizens. It's too bad those gangs from Los Angeles' South side have been coordinating attacks on the marching Armenians, out of revenge for what the Armenians had done to their families. Luckily, most of the Armenians make it to South Dakota. There have been deaths along the way... famine, disease and massacres at the hands of fellow citizens have taken some toll. America survives the ordeal, and some seventy years later, Armenians claim 1.5 million of their numbers have been systematically murdered (curiously surpassing the figure of their entire population in California, based on various neutral censuses/sources), in a repulsive act of "genocide"... making up all kinds of reasons in a desperate attempt to find motives, such as the Americans were xenophobic, or that the Americans needed to blame their crumbling empire on a scapegoat, or that the Americans were after their money... while the Armenians took it like lambs awaiting sla

Sam Weems is a former district attorney and judge who wrote a book called ARMENIA — SECRETS OF A "CHRISTIAN" TERRORIST STATE. He made numerous research on this subject based only on Armenian sources and scholars. Here's a letter that he wrote to an Armenian who apperently did not even read the book yet had the right to critise him for writing it. Read it here http://www.armenianreality.com/AMERICAN_AUTHOR_SAM_WEEMS.html

By all means judge for yourselves the likely objectivity inherent in the scholarship of this author, husband to Gulnur and sponsored by the "Ataturk World Peace Institute.” This guy's accolades are right up there with Arafat winning a Nobel Peace Prize. Samuel Weems Passed Away The death of "The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State" author is mourned by all Turks Yuksel Oktay, The Turkish Times - Samuel Weems, the retired judge from Hazen, Arkansas, had died of a heart attack on January 25, 2003. We wish comfort to his wife Gulnur, son, and family members, with our thanks for his never ending effort to help Turkish causes. This is a great loss for Turks and their friends. Sam Weems was scheduled to visit Turkey on January 28th for a two month stay to continue with his research on the Armenian issue and also to attend the March 12 Commemoration on the Liberation of Erzurum from the Armenians. Samuel Weems came to Turkey last year to attend a Conference on the 81th Anniversary of the murder of Talat Pasa on March 10, 2002. He was among many scholars who spoke about the Armenian issue, including Eric Feigl, the author of ''A Myth of Terror'' on the Armenian terrorism, and talked about the involvement of the Armenian Church in the Armenian terror. Weems appeared on TRT, CNNTurk, TV8, NTV and was interviewed on TRT2 on ''Aksama Dogru'' in Ankara. Weems also spared time to talk to young students in Istanbul and Ankara who were eager to learn about the Armenian issue. He corresponded with many of them, keeping them up to date with the latest news. In May, 2002, Sam Weems's book, ''The Secrets of a Christian Terrorist State'' was published in the United States, which was also purchased by many individuals and associations in Turkey. Sam was working on the second edition of the book, including its translation into Turkish and Russian and was scheduled to meet with his publisher in Turkey for the publication of Turkish version of his book. His second book on the Armenians in the German Army was almost complete, ready for printing. Sam Weems came to Turkey again in late August last year with a delegation from Arkansas and met with top leaders in Turkey together with the members of the Turkish Forum. After the meetings in Turkey, Sam took time to go to Baku to talk with his friends on their fight against the Armenian occupation of Karabag region. He was committed to helping Turkey in their fight against the smear and hate campaigns that is still rampant in the States and in Europe. He had many ideas in working with the Azerbaijanis and Turks to let the world know the truth about the Armenian issue. He always talked about the ''Ataturk World Peace Institute'' that he, the members of the Arkansas Delegation and and the members of the Turkish Forum, wanted to be built in Little Rock Arkansas, across from the Clinton Library. Sam Weems loved Turkey, was a great admirer of Ataturk and was devoted to Turkish causes, and despite many threats to his life, he worked relentlessly to let the people know the truth about the Armenian issue. He will be missed greatly. Source: http://www.theturkishtimes.com/archive/03/0203/f_weems.html v^2

I was stunned to read this on this website. http://www.cilicia.com/2002/06/brazil-vs.html An excerpt from the article: "I was noticing when the Turkish players would knock over a Brazilian player, how the Turks would check to see if the Brazilian was okay, rub their head, pat them on the back (even one time on the butt) and help them up as if they were sorry for what they had done. I pointed this out and one of the widows said that Turks are like that. They will lick your feet, smile at you, but if given the chance, they will cut off your head. The others agreed." I am asking everyone on this board to tell me if what the Turkish players did throughout the game was the right behavior. Everytime I watch a soccer game, if one player fouls the opposition should do say sorry or show that he's sorry. Anyway, what does that tell you about Armenian way of thinking against the Turks? Aren't they being brainwashed by their parents to learn hatred. I would never ever fill my childrens' heads with such Bull**** and make them hate certain ethnic groups. I feel sorry for those people. I now believe 100% that there was no genocide. That is what those kids are being taught in history. That is what Armenian kids are being told by their parents. Doesn't anybody else see that? When I was a little kid, there was a Turkish-Armenian actor with an Armenian name (I cannot remember his name) that I used to love. Everytime I watched his movies, I used to feel that he's as close to me as my grandfather. Until the time that I got to know that Armenians accused my ancestors of killing 1.5 million Armenians, I see them our brothers just like the way I see Azeriis, Uzbeks, or Turkmens. I still do, but I was still disappointed. That actor did not have to change his name or escape the country to survive in Turkey. He was treated with the same respect as the Turks. Can a Turkish actor or whoever it may be survive in Armenia with this type of attitude? I have been living in the USA for 5 years now. I met an Armenian mechanic who was born and brought up in Turkey and then immigrated to the US. I don't see any hatred feelings towards me or other Turks. He's a gentlement. He knows how Turkish people are, because he lived with them. We shouldn't even argue this Armenian problem anymore because there is no such thing as genocide.

The purpose of the question though, kane, was to ask you to see things from a different perspective; after all, for you, is it more important to know the truth, or to stubbornly represent your country's position, right or wrong? the two may be one and the same, i agree, but it is not always so, right? the sign of a superior intelligence, in my view, is the ability to criticize oneself and to see the truth, even if the image is not flattering. you will find many people on strategypage who simply parrot their country's position and believe 'my country right or wrong', but i suggest to you that there is another way: a thirst for the truth, no matter where it takes you. your answer to question #2 is not great:) i can think of many positive things to admitting that a genocide took place. think of the armenians and minorities who live in turkey today. surely they would feel better if turkey admitted the unpleasant facts of those events with the spirit of 'never again'. the tendancy to deny that they happened may just put a chill down the backs of minorities in turkey... don't you think?

Well Armenians would feel better but Turks would feel worst which would also cause many protests. If you look from Armenian point,they should be sad because of our stubborness because they believe it was a genocide.You think other minorities would feel better??According to some of our other minorities we committed a genocide aganist them too.This will give them power and they will began to say we want the same. +If we accept such a disaster,my people would be very ashamed of it.Especially when we have the proofs(or when the other side has no proofs).

ok, let's continue: What are the similarities and differences between the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide/'Problem' ?

It's known as a genocide because of the slaughters aganist Armenians.But actually(according to Turks) it wasn't a genocide because it doesn't fit in "Genocide" terms. 1.The slaughter must be done aganist a race(or religion) as government's policy. What has been done was aganist Armenians.But was it governtment's policy to "kill Armenians".Governments policy was to move the Eastern Armenians to Syria. 2.This slaughter should happen in every parts of the country,not just one place. Well many Armenians had to move to different places,i even had the numbers(collected from newspapers, my father cleaned my room though) But the slaughters were only in Eastern parts of Anatolia. 3.This slaughter must be done repeatedly not once. Well it is known that hundreds of thousands of them were died or killed on their way to new lands.We weren't collecting and killing them. And the most important thing is that it must be a planned policy to destroy the race.There is no direct otder from government to kill Armenians.Who killed ARmenians then?? Turkish and Kurdish villagers,gangs.Why did they kill them??!!It all began because of the eastern frontline aganist Russians.Armenians joined them and supported them by killing villagers.Yes more than 500 000 Turks and Kurds were killed. This hatred caused more death on Armenian side. Now look at Jewsih holocoust.Hitler hated Jews and he wanted them to be killed in camps.The order is from head of country.The killers weren't angry Germans.Then the Jews were killed in camps in an organised way,right?? Since the the word "genocide" came after Jewsih holocoust,it's terms are according to it.And what we did has no relation with it.

If you believe that there was a genocide that took place, please tell me why you believe so. I realize that a lot of people WANT it happened for some reason without laying any evidence. I got into a lot of arguments with Armenians and/or others but all I got back was "you are a liar. I'd kill you if you were here"

It happened almost a century ago. Give it up. We can't bring those people back. We can't repopulate the territory around Lake Van with Armenians unless war is waged on the people who resettled those lands. It's done with. For that matter we can't repopulate the Greeks of Ionia. These were tragedies, and the parallel uprooting of Turkish minorities in almost all the surrounding countries was tragic too. But all these things happened almost a century ago. There's enough guilt for everybody in the dissolution of the Ottomon Empire