Pars I disagree with most of what you said and I could provide my own personal experiences contrary to them however we'd be going in circles. The point is that if you think that schools are responsible for rearing children then you shouldn't be having any children of your own. Schools are for educating not for instilling values. If you were right however, German, Danish and other Western European youth would behave like Turkish youth and this just isn't the case. I do believe Turks have a cultural inferiority complex - the results being poor behaviour amongst your menfolk. Further, I believe that the Turkish community in Germany is solely and unconditionally responsible for any perceived misfortunes they might feel. Opportunities are there and many have made use of them - anything else is excuses and trying to shift blame onto the victim.

We are not going in circles. I have given you the reasons why Turks in USA integrated in American society and why Turks in Germany did not. As you can see I am not blaming Germans, but I am blaming bad German policies about the subject. If you can admit that I am trying to be impartial about the issue, you will also admit that I know my people much better than you do who do not really try to understand them. And I did not say that Turks in Germany did not have inferiority complex. I said Turks in Anatolia do not have any. If Turks in Germany have them, you should ask why they develope an inferior complex. In my experience people are generally the same no matter what their nationality or religions are. It is the circumstances they are living in that effects their behaviour. The behaviours of Turks in Germany generally the same for any group of people who lives in Ghetto culture and believed that they are treated as 2nd class citisens. The other parts of the world lived or living the same problem with other minorities. So the problem is a circumsitantial one, which can be solved by clever policies.

I think we are going in circles. Let me address your points Several mistakes I see on Germany. 1. Turks at Germany live together with other Turks. Which develops a Ghetto logic on them. Should Germany fobid Turks from living with one another? 2. At the schools Turks are going; they are going there in large numbers. So they develop a seperate identity from the rest. You really should mix them into all schools in small numbers. With that child develop an uniter identity. Children go to school where they live should the German government cart Turkish kids around the country to prevent them from going to school from one another. Alternatively, should Germany reduce the number of Turks in the country to diminish overall numbers and thus reduce the number of Turks attending schools together? Or is a third option to accept the rapid increase of other ethnic groups, let's say, Armenians to decrease the overall ratio of Turkish kids to non-Turks in school classrooms? 3. Turks in Germany thinks that they do not have equal chances in educational systems. Maybe they are wrong. But this belief makes them feel seperated. Not all Turks, those that get over feeling sorry for themselves make something of themselves and the same goes for anyone else. 4. Turks in Germany generally works much harder then Germans because they think if they do not they will be fired. Generally they do not know what theirs legal rights are. And they think they do not have them. That might be what your Turkish friens tell you but I doubt there is any real evidence that they work harder or less hard than anyone else. Under employment laws they cannot be fired for doing their job and in many cases cannot be fired for doing it poorly. Like I said earlier, they are subject to exactly the same employment provisions that Germans are. Furthermore, Turks often work in places where most of their co-workers are non-German so why would they worry about getting fired first? They don't know what their legal rights are?? Sevfenty percent of Turks are on some form of welfare - are you suggesting that the other 30% would also take it if they knew their "rights"? I know a Turk that has been unemployed for six months and been living off unemployment - I'm not saying this is bad, he's a good guy but he definitely knows his rights. 5. Germany did not give mandotory German lessons to the immigrants. There were many Turkish workers who did not learn German. Even in Turkey it is mandotory to learn Turkish to be immigrant. So now you demand mandatory lessons for immigrants. Lessons are made available to those that want them. The government can't force Turks to take those lessons - it's called personal responsibility. If they don't speak German well, chances are they don't want to and then you complain about education and job opportunities! 6. Turks came from a Steppe Culture. And most important trait of Steppe culture is adaptation. Turks easily adopts to environment he /she is living if given the chance. Yes, yes, they do everything they can to adopt the culture of the country that they're living in including being nice to Christians in churches..

1. Not forbid. But can encourage to live somewhereelse by giving economical advantages. 2. This a matter of planning. By good planning it can be done. It is done in USA. And to your all 3 suggestions: Why not? All of them can work by good planning. 3.I do not ýnderstand that comment of yours. 4. These percantage you have given is obviously ballony. Not all Turks know their rights. Obviously some do. 5. The government can force them to take German lessons. More than that it is the duty of government to be sure that all immigrants learn it. 6. Well, everybody should be nice to everyone at everywhere. Turks generally known to be very nice people. Every group has its own exceptions.

My friend Hugo (I am not sure if we could become “real” friends) First of all, nobody is saying it is a good thing that you were bothered in church, that really is a shame. Secondly, I have to say that this kind of encounters increase prejudgemental behavior especially in people like you: “ We have a culture, yo u don’t. We are responsible for everything good, we are the good guys…!” Let me tell you a few things: I was born in Germany and I lived there for 13 years. So I might say, I know quite a lot about this matter. It is true, most of the families coming as labor from our country, were poorly educated. But Germany needed this kind of employees. Turks (but also other foreign workers as well) were working under worse conditions and were paid worse than Germans. In a way, those disliked foreigners did quite a job in building today’s Germany, creating the economic power it became in the years… Nowadays, because Money has no nationality, many employers shut down factories in Germany to open ones in cheaper countries (especially eastern European countries these days). Many Turks believe Germans forgot to thank , before trying to get rid of us… On the other hand, the things that happen in Germany or in similar countries (when I say similar I mean that there is no big difference between Germany, Netherlands, Denmark in the foreign worker issue), create racism. This happens in Turkey too, most of the ordinary crimes in Turkey, are committed by some minorities. Only by saying this many people among you would call me a racist very easily… Then you would say that these minorities have worse education, worse living standards and less rights… And again we would be guilty… Assuming this would be the direction of our discussion, that would mean, whatever we do we are guilty, if our youth does something bad we treat them wrongly, if other people do us wrong, we have made mistakes and are paying for it… I do not want to forget to thank PARS for his outstanding performance here. To set some things straight: Hugo said before; “chest beating and general behavior resembling primates to demonstrate strength.” With this you say Turks resemble Primates?! (An author in this very discussion said that he was glad that the discussion was not under-the-belly… I think Hugo is trying to hit low here. But it is not a successful hit ”Turkey is also a feminine society and Germany a masculine one which I think adds more inferiority complexes to the macho Turkish men (who nevertheless can't seem to kiss one another enough).” I lived in Germany for 13 years, and since 19 years I live here in Turkey, let me tell you one thing. I know both societies very well, I can tell the difference. Plus, as a matter of fact here you are trying to hit Turkish genitals. Turkey is anything else than a feminine society, people can tell many things about Turkey, but this one I heard for the first time, it is amusing me. For me Turkey is too masculine a country, we have too few female employees, too few female politicians, doctors, lawyers and so on. Turkey is trying to increase the female share in the economy. Many people (mostly in our eastern regions though) don’t want their daughters to get a proper education… This my “friend” is completely different in Germany, and you know what you should be proud of it! Instead you are telling us here that we are “feminine”, come on Hugo, you could do better than that. Germany in my eyes is nothing near to a masculine society, you aren’t raised like that. You do what you want with your lives, we don’t care, but please don’t tell us stupid things like “men are kissing men”, you are trying to create a feeling that this might be a sexual action?! I am not sure if I should explain it to you, because by doing this I would show you, how discriminating you are against people with different cultures. Okay, Turkish people touch cheek-to-cheek as a hello or a goodbye. We do not kiss, simple, isn’t it. There are cultures where they kiss each other, where they scrub their noses against and so on. Telling about this Turkish behavior is nothing more than stupid Hugo. “Turks enjoyed excellent health care courtesy of the German taxpayer” This my “friend” is a typical ignorant and, excuse me racist view of things… I try to remember, both my mother and father were working, weren’t they paying any taxes??? I think Hugo, you are wrong here, in every thing you use in Germany, there is an amount of tax in it, paid by foreign workers… And do not bother to tell me that many foreign people are receiving money while unemployed, ill or during retirement. By paying in you get the right to receive, that’s the point. Millions of Germans receive lots of money (called Sozialschmarotzer), the system is faulty, not the people. The German educational system, in which I was extremely successful, is based on a very early sorting strategy. For children in the age between 7-10, when you come from a Turkish speak

Long and rambling thread Umitt. I won't address everything you've mentioned because it's been done in previous posts or your points haven't been terribly thought out to begin with. First off - 70% of Turks are on some form of welfare in Germany so they do not carry their weight. The health care system in Germany is one where a Turk can pay a small amount of money in and his six children and unemployed wife are covered. Someone like myself pays an identical amount and only I am covered. I could have six kids and tell my wife to stop working but I choose not to. Thus, Germany's welfare state is particularly attractive to the Turks. The chest beating comment is valid - spend some time here. I'm not German, before I came here I had no strong opinion of the Turks because I didn't know many. Now that I've been here for a number of years I have developed an opinion on your community on the basis of multiple experiences I have had with that community - one such experience which I mentioned in the original post. As for Turkey being "too masculine" I ask you to refer to the widely regarded work of Geert Hofstede. You'll notice that Turkey is a very feminine society. I find it humourous that you believe otherwise. Apparently chest beating and treating women like second class citizens are your definition of a masculine society. Not so. Masculine societies are those like the Japanese and Anglo-Saxon societies where the male role is masculine ie salary man concept in Japan. Arab and Turkish societies are feminine. Perhaps that is the reason for the primate like behaviour - a self-rejection of one's own feminine nature/culture. See Hofstede for yourself.. http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?culture1=34&culture2=93

Dear Hugo, first off my name is Umit, you should not say Omit, and you should not play with the language to win a discussion (which you apparently aren't able to, by legitimate means that is:) "Neglecting" your level of conversation, I'll tell you one thing: I haven't read Hofstede and he might mean something else with masculine-feminine culture, the point is, I can't think of a "real" scientist, believing that there is a connection between being feminine and men touching each others cheeks, as a greeting habit, that would be, simply put, a stupid theory:) I said before: “For me Turkey is too masculine a country, we have too few female employees, too few female politicians, doctors, lawyers and so on. Turkey is trying to increase the female share in the economy. Many people (mostly in our eastern regions though) don’t want their daughters to get a proper education…” I think you will agree with me that this is true, isn’t it? Now reading what Mr.Hofstede means with masculinity: "Masculinity (MAS) focuses on the degree the society reinforces, or does not reinforce, the traditional masculine work role model of male achievement, control, and power. A High Masculinity ranking indicates the country experiences a high degree of gender differentiation. In these cultures, males dominate a significant portion of the society and power structure, with females being controlled by male domination. A Low Masculinity ranking indicates the country has a low level of differentiation and discrimination between genders. In these cultures, females are treated equally to males in all aspects of the society." That means: The higher this, rather questionable, index, is, the lesser the women in this society are worth… I repeat: “…A High Masculinity ranking indicates the country experiences a high degree of gender differentiation. In these cultures, males dominate a significant portion of the society and power structure, with females being controlled by male domination.” Females are dominated by male domination…Ahaa, let”s continue. (Remember Germany has a higher masculinity index, in Hofstede’s opinion.) It means further: The lower the ranking, the more independent are the women in this country, it doesn’t mean that the male population consists of sissiesJ I repeat another time: “. A Low Masculinity ranking indicates the country has a low level of differentiation and discrimination between genders. In these cultures, females are treated equally to males in all aspects of the society." If I understand this one right, by viewing the numbers after each country, and I believe I do understand it right, in Germany women are treated worse, than in Turkey, have less rights than in Turkey, do work less in paid jobs than women in Turkey... Do you believe that?? We should be taken into the EU tomorrow:) I read it again and again, the meaning does not change, could you help me here? ( I must state that I do not agree with Mr.Hofstede, not for Turkey and not for Germany, in this matter, I mean female rights and gender equality, Germany is more developed than Turkey, may be the sample groups were chosen badly?!) Shame on you for insisting on calling Turks primates… You are a racist Mr. Hugo, and therefore not even a primate in my eyesJ Shame on you for thinking that every Turk has 6 kidsJ It is just not true, you are a Liar! You said: “Apparently chest beating and treating women like second class citizens are your definition of a masculine society.” I did not say that I said, “For me Turkey is too masculine a country, we have too few female employees, too few female politicians, doctors, lawyers and so on. Turkey is trying to increase the female share in the economy. Many people (mostly in our eastern regions though) don’t want their daughters to get a proper education…”, that means, my definition is quite similar to the one of Mr.Hofstede. By the way, you are NOT German? Could I ask, where are you from?

Mr. Hugo, I wonder if you really have ever read carefully the article that you have given link. In the chart in that site having high mascularity rating is not a good thing. Let's look at it. Masculinity (MAS) focuses on the degree the society reinforces, or does not reinforce, the traditional masculine work role model of male achievement, control, and power. A High Masculinity ranking indicates the country experiences a high degree of gender differentiation. In these cultures, males dominate a significant portion of the society and power structure, with females being controlled by male domination. A Low Masculinity ranking indicates the country has a low level of differentiation and discrimination between genders. In these cultures, females are treated equally to males in all aspects of the society. So according to Geert-Hofstede chart in Turkish culture women treated more fairly than in German culture. Thanks for the link. Try to really read it first before commenting.

I've studied Hofstede in depth and neither you Umitt or Pars have understood him but nevertheless have drawn your own conclusions. Your understanding of Hofstede's masculinity index and the cultural-social results are wrong and will take more than a further cursory glance to rectify. Umitt, I didn't call Turks primates but merely suggested that some behaved in a manner resembling primates - the individual I met at Church being one such example. By using that word, I meant to convey that some Turkish male youth behaved like ultra machos which is particularly pronounced when they are in groups. If you believe this is racist fine - I imagine that your conclusion is about as sound as that deriven from your misunderstanding of Hofstede. Nor did I suggest that all Turks have six children - this was an example of how Turkish families benefitted (disproportionally in many cases) from the welfare system which you deny delivers equality to the Turkish community - which of course is utter bs. I know a Turk with a son with a serious heart condition who readily admits that he couldn't afford the treatment that son received in Germany had he been living in Turkey. He's also returned to work after being unemployed for the past six months - Germany supported him through that difficult stage. Then, the government has helped him to establish his business which has enabled him to return to work. His family continues to receive assistance from the German government through this difficult period. This example isn't given to point out that Turks live off of welfare. Kemal is a nice guy and has been unlucky. However the example is designed to show the blatant falsity of arguments suggesting that Turks behave poorly because they are not treated equally. Those arguments are designed to absolve yourselves of personal responsibility. Instead of racism, I have a cultural disagreement with a great many of Europe's Islamic community - particularly their male youth. Don't like it? Change your behaviour. Change YOUR behaviour.

How I misunderstand it. I have put directly the definition directly from the web-site you have given. Masculinity (MAS) focuses on the degree the society reinforces, or does not reinforce, the traditional masculine work role model of male achievement, control, and power. A High Masculinity ranking indicates the country experiences a high degree of gender differentiation. In these cultures, males dominate a significant portion of the society and power structure, with females being controlled by male domination. A Low Masculinity ranking indicates the country has a low level of differentiation and discrimination between genders. In these cultures, females are treated equally to males in all aspects of the society. The definition is very obvious. The problem of your arguments are you are very prejudgemental about Turks. You know a very few of Turks. And you get very prejudgemental conclusions about all Turks from their behaviour. Maybe you are not aware but this attitude is instictively racist. Not all Turks are same, as not all Germans are same.