Once, I would have agreed with you FJV but I've reached the end of my tolerance for Turkish youth. The adults (40+) are pretty good folk but they have no control over their children and Islamic/Turkish culture seems to have an inferiority complex against the West - thus the chest beating and general behaviour resembling primates to demonstrate strength. Turkey is also a feminine society and Germany a masculine one which I think adds more inferiority complexes to the macho Turkish men (who nevertheless can't seem to kiss one another enough). Other islamic minorities in France and Belgium are at least as bad and I truly believe that Islam is the common denominator for bad behaviour in these countries. I doubt that the Turkish Imam cares much about his flock - it's almost certainly out of his control from what I can notice.

You want me to be honest Pars? It's time for you to get honest. Turks came to Germany as guest workers. They were treated with as much respect as German citizens. They were provided with good employment, with excellent employment conditions which Germans also enjoyed. Turks enjoyed excellent health care courtesy of the German taxpayer, a standard of health care they never could have hoped to receive in Turkey. Turks were provided with a standard of education they never would have dreamed of in Turkey. Turks were provided with housing and unemployment benefits. Their children went to university free of charge (admittedly not many but they have themselves to blame there). So what exactly do you understand by assimilation Pars? I expect by assimilation, you mean that Turks are treated equally? Guess what, the Turks coming to Germany were treated better than they ever had done in Anatolia. I know of no problems with Germany's Greek community and there are lot of them here. It's your imagination if you think they behave like Turks. I can't speak for the US but I know that Melbourne, Australia has problems with Turks that are identical to those in Germany despite very different immigration programmes. The truth is Pars that you have no idea what you're talking about. You blame Germany for the behaviour of young Turks? That's bull - you choose not to integrate either because you don't want to or you find Western culture inconsistent with your own less developed system of values (which include honour killings and other atrocities). It's time for your Turks to remove your heads from your rear ends, take a good look in the mirror and realise you have serious social problems and get with the programme.

You sound like hittle in 1930's. What we americans have to come and kick your little germany asses again sounds like. This is how hitler came to power hugo. Separation of culture and making of second citizens. You saying turkeys need to become german and adopt christianity? Thats what hitler tryed and failed. WHy dont people in germany get this once for all. Germany and germans need to get along with people around them. Stop ordering people around and try to adopt to the world. What it sounds like bunch germanys sitting around and blaming their social problems in minorties. We been hearing the east germanys are lazy. East germans are useless and should be send to russia. If germany and germans gets its head of out its ass can see what is wrong with germany. Germans like you makes hiter live on.

You are very wrong about the conditions about Turkish workers in Germany. A Turkish worker needs to be much more efficient than a German worker to keep his work. And unemployment benefits do not work the same way for Germans and Turks. Very few Turkish youngsters admitted into Universities in Germany no matter how good their grades are. I have friends who returned from Germany for that reason and finished very good universities in Turkey. The Turkish youth you are talking about born in Germany not Turkey. They are educated in your educational systems not ours. Whatever their downfalls are it is Germany which is responsible for their behaviours not Turkey. And Anatolian Turks have no inferiority complex. And why should we. Western powers tried to invade Turkey several times between 1787-1923 period. Never succeeded. We have as much sophisticated culture as anybody. If Germany Turks have an inferiority complex, then you should ask why. Why Turks in USA and UK has none of the problems but Turks in Germany do? Could it be because you treated them as 2nd grade citisens? I know you, Hugo do; by your posts. Bottom line is Germany should have a programme to integrate the immigrants. But Germany did not have any. And my Turkish friend who returned from Germany told me that Greeks and Yugoslavians have similar problems as Turks (to be treated as 2nd class citisens by Germans).

Career, I object to be being labelled in the manner which you have accused. I can tell from your post that you are young and have little idea about what you're talking about. You shoudl take note of the old saying which I've altered to suit you, "it is better to keep quiet and have people suspect you of being an ingorant than to open it and remove all doubt." Good luck with your career.

Pars, you seem like a nice guy but you know little of what you are talking about. You're wrong on the education system, you're wrong on the unemployment system and you're wrong on the university admission system. So wrong in fact that you should reconsider what you post without having any more evidence than the testimonies of failed and bitter Turkish university rejects. None of what you have said is accurate and I challenge you to provide one thread of evidence. The evidence to the contrary is easily available if you do not object to the truth getting in the way of your desired view. I don't know about Turkey, but in the rest of the world, it is not schools but parents and communities that raise young people. i.e. Turkish youngsters are raised by Turkish parents and in Turkish communities. These are the institutions (and the Mosques presumably) that are responsible for providing value systems and they do a terrible job of it. Bottom line is that Turkish communities in Germany have every opportunity that Germans do in employment, education and social services. Your comparisons with the US are ridiculous - Turks won't get FREE education, FREE healthcare and other social services and nor will they be subject to the same employment rights in that more market driven society. Again, stop inventing circumstances which contrast with the truth and for once in your life admit that your culture has deficiencies. These deficiencies are the source of your inferiority complex not the fact that some Ottomans managed to withstand invasion - the fact that you use this as an argument says a great deal.

A recent report released by the Danish Ministry of Education says that half- HALF!- of all Muslims can't read or write Danish when they finish elementary school. They disrespect their teachers and fellow students and prefer the company of fellow gang members and the advice of their imams. they congregate in ghettos and live in a society completely disconnected from the rest of the country. The problem is with the Turks/Muslims. Europe worked just fine before they came here. No other foreign culture, or the youth of other cultures, be it Chinese, Jewis, Poles, Canadians, Tamils, etc. has created anywhere near the amount of trouble caused by Muslims. The Muslims in Europe, and indeed the entire planet, need to get over their victim complex and start take responsibility for their actions instead of shopping for scapegoats. And also, I believe that Islam needs reform just like Christianity has had throughout the ages. Only then can we get past sharia and other barbaric nonsense and actually make an Islam that allows Muslims to live in harmony with other people. Turkey definitely shows the way as far as secularizing their society and accepting modern and Western norms, but there is still a long way to go. I might sound like a rascist, but I really don't mean it to be so. I am simply struck by how often, Islam or Islamic culture is the problem. This is not a coincidence. PS: I haven't failed to notice, that despite the touchy nature of our subject, we have had a generally above-the-belt debate so far (with the notable exception of career909). Let's keep up the good work.

The Turks living in Europe are radical muslims and they are not educated.i agree that they learn everything from their uneducated and radical families. This always repeats and i think it will repeat in the future too. But the most religious Turks are in europe, believe me Turkey is not like that. The prime minister Recep Tayip Erdoðan and his party is religious.He supports some religious things but he is not that bad(i hope). Our army is one of the greatest defender of democracy.I trust our generals because of their education. info-Turkey is not an islamic country *insists on writing this :D* USA says Turkey uses a good mixture of islam-democracy.(and shows us as example) Nope thats not right Turkey seperated islam-democracy(and government) >sorry i changed the main topic :D things i can say about european Turks -they are generally religious -they are nationalist.It's a psychlogical thing because they are living in a foreign country (generally) -They miss their country. -They can turn their backs to Turkey(some of them)-ex:professors,doctors and others -They are stupid rappers and they think themselves as cool mafias.(generally) -They have to use Germany's name in sport competitions These are some of my general thoughts about european Turks but this is not for all of them.

Oh, and Career, I am not German and for someone claiming to be American, you have a terribly poor grasp of the English language. Methinks that you're a fraud..

The base of an inferiority complex is generally to be feeling a 2nd class citizen. And usually happens in cultures who were invaded by a foreign power for a long time. Anatolian Turks never invaded, were always free, and never developed an inferiority complex. Some might argue that Turks even have a little superiority complex over military matters because of our past successes on that field. My evidence on the subject are the Turks who returned from Germany. My aunt's familt were one of them. When their oldest child were at 7 they returned from Germany. My uncle-in-law told me that he really liked Germany. He had many friends there Turks or German but when he realised that his children would not get equal oppurtunities with German children in educational systems they returned. One other is one of my friends. He said he was one of the top students in his school but his teachers were trying to direct him to technical schools instead of Uniersities. In Turkey you win the University entry by a central exam. Everybody has equal chances. He won one of the best Universities in Turkey. I do not agree with you on educational system. A chil spends 5 to 8 hours in school. Much less with his parents. Surely the educational system has at least the same level of effect on child as parents. Several mistakes I see on Germany. 1. Turks at Germany live together with other Turks. Which develops a Ghetto logic on them. 2. At the schools Turks are going; they are going there in large numbers. So they develop a seperate identity from the rest. You really should mix them into all schools in small numbers. With that child develop an uniter identity. 3. Turks in Germany thinks that they do not have equal chances in educational systems. Maybe they are wrong. But this belief makes them feel seperated. 4. Turks in Germany generally works much harder then Germans because they think if they do not they will be fired. Generally they do not know what theirs legal rights are. And they think they do not have them. 5. Germany did not give mandotory German lessons to the immigrants. There were many Turkish workers who did not learn German. Even in Turkey it is mandotory to learn Turkish to be immigrant. 6. Turks came from a Steppe Culture. And most important trait of Steppe culture is adaptation. Turks easily adopts to environment he /she is living if given the chance. Turks living in USA lives there in small numbers. They do not have any "Ghettos". They all know English. They see that everybody has equal chances in USA on everything. American society is ready to accept them. So, Turks in USA adopted to the life in USA. It is impossible to notice them from other Americans. 2nd Generation of American Turks speaks English much better than they speak Turkish.