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Subject: A message to all Westerners and Turks
Volkan the Turk    10/9/2005 10:30:38 AM
I am a Turk who grew up in Australia, but i am a Turk. And my children will be Turkish. And i have completely integrated into Australian western culture, without losing my identity. I was elected the captain of my school thru peers, i got the top mark in the university examinations, and i am part of many cultural and charitable organisations. But along side this i am also the president of turkish student assoication and many other Turkish culture activities. I will not lose my Turkish identity because i love my country, i love my culture, and i love my people. Futhermore, thru out thousands of years our forefathers sacrificed their lives, without thinking twice, so that we may remain Turkish. I will not insult them by forgetting about their sacrifice. When it comes to us being to nationalistic, there is no such thing. I would die for my country, if it was in any threat at all. Without thinking twice. I will spend my whole life conserving our culture and language. What can be to extreme is ignorance. And dont confuse this with patrotism. Ignorance is idiots on this forum calling for a war with Turkey. Ignorance is claiming all those racsist comments being exclaimed about Turkey by Europeans in this forum. With attitudes like that no wonder the Euro-Turks have a hard time integrating. You guys claim there is a culture gap, but looking at the comments made on this forum by the Europeans, i am even more proud to be Turkish. Atleast, even though we are obviuosly biased, we still have a common humanity in us. Do you honestly think that your country is so fantastic that we want to leave our beloved homes and come to you cold, crowded, foreign nation? Even though we know the racsism, cold heartedness, and bigortory that lies ahead? Of course we dont you uneducated idiots! We do so, so that our children will have better lives. What did you do to deserve a better life? what the F**K right do you have to look down upon anyone you is different and poor. You were born into your lives! And if you were born in Turkey or any poor nation, how would u feel, working day and night, and still not being able to give you kids 1 tenth of what some lazy bigot in a European welfare state can give their kids? Have some humanity, have some brains. We are muslim, so bloody what? Does that mean all Christians are good? No! Does that mean all muslims are good? NO! You all look on TV and see muslim terorists, but terorism is increasing as it is being more and more advertised and muslims are being more and more prosecutes againsts. Plus since when have Turks been terorists? Plus no one mentioned terorism when Aremenians were excuting and bombing our embassies? No one mentioned terorism when muslims in Azerbajcan were being killed. No one mentioned terorism when Cyprus was cleansing Turks. Dont get me wrong. IM not religious at all. And im sure alot of biased has been in the pro-Turkish media which i am influenced by. BUT the difference is we can realise this. We arent blind enough to think we are all holy and mighty and the foreigners want our land. Think of it from the other persons view. In Australia, Arabs are the ones prosecuted against. And likewise, they seem to underperform and are involved in alot of crime. In nation surveys, Turks in Australia seem to be among the top few most successful ethnicities along with the Asian countries. This shows, that even though Turks came here much later then Germany, we can succeed if the country allows us too. Id like to relay a final message to all my Turkish kindred, never lose your Turkishness. Never lose our language or culture. We belong together. No matter where in this world we may travel, never forget that tens of millions thru out history have given and devouted their whole lives so that we may keep our culture and our heritage. Never forget you are who you are because of them. Meet and integrate, but never lose and forget. And a final message to the west, get over it. Forget what people's race or religion is. Keep you own culture. If you only accepted foreigners as people and not as some different lower race, they wouldnt be in crime or have less opportunities. Racsism is a thing of the past. You can say all you want, but not accepting a country into Europe, even though you need us, even though if you reject us into the EU your going to have to allow migration from Africa and the MIddle east at increasing rates to substitute your declining population (im doing an honours in Economics so i know what im talking about). So your going to have to take in people from different cultures anyway. It might aswell be Turks, who are a mix of east and west culture. If anyone would like to ask or talk to me my email is [email protected]
 
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Hugo    RE:Vulkan the Turk   11/17/2005 11:12:56 AM
What terrorists were ever Turkish you ask? It seems the Turkish culture you're so dedicated to has forgotten to inform you about the genocide against Armenian civilians in 1915. Or perhaps they've forgotten to let you in on the pograms against the Greeks after World War 1. I'd also be interested in knowing which Australian university gave such grade to a student who writes such poor English. Sigh.. a Bachelor of Arts isn't what it used to be.
 
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Pseudonym    Hugo, you missed an arguement and your question shows it.   11/17/2005 9:20:17 PM
Pointing out the Armenian Genocide isn't the problem. The problem is that the Turkish have so whitewashed their history on this matter, by making it illegal to even discuss in Turkey, that the current generation of Turks actually try to justify or act like it didn't happen. Don't waste your time on Pars, he is ludicrously ignorant. They say the true measure of wisdom is to accept that you do not know all. Pars apparently knows everything in his view. You cannot convince a fanatic that God does not exist.
 
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Pars    RE:Pseudonym   11/17/2005 9:30:22 PM
Thanks for the compliment.
 
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Hugo    RE:Pseudonym   11/18/2005 7:27:07 AM
No you're right Pseudonym the problem is their failure to acknowledge, apologise sincerely and pay reparations to Armenia and their own Armenian minority in Turkey and that is what I was getting at. Until they have apologised, the issue remains tragically relevant.
 
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Pars    RE: so called Genocide   11/18/2005 7:11:29 PM
Turkey and Armenia did start an international forum to examine the issue. After the first meeting both sides agreed on to bring every historical document about the subject. International neutral historians would particape and check the the gathering process. Armenian and International historians were given an unlimited access to Ottoman archives. Armenian government never opened its own archives and their representatives never showed up for the 2nd meeting. So, where are the proofs of the Genocide. Ottoman archives are open to historians. But there is no proofs. Unlike many I did read the Armenian eyewitness reports who were in the group who were transported to Syria. They clearly identified the attckers of the caravans as Kurdish bandits. They were complaining about the inadequate escort soldiers. No eye witness has ever said anything about Turkish soldiers attacking unarmed Armenian civilians. There is no document about any Turkish official ordering to kill Armenians. There are population records before the war and after the war. There are records of the people who were forcibly transported to Syria. There are records of how many Armenian civilians killed by bandits or died because of hard conditions. These are hard material proofs which are disproving the claims. Make no mistake. This claims are a political act to create an anti-Turkish atmosphere to stop Turkey's entrance to EU and to bring outside help to poor Armenian Economy.
 
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Titan    RE: so called Genocide   11/19/2005 1:15:28 PM
Interesting to read... Taner Akcam on Archive Purging From Armeniapedia.org TANER AKCHAM: "PURGE OF ARCHIVES IS QUITE IMPORTANT ADMINISTRATIVE CULTURE" IN TURKEY" ISTANBUL, December 29 (Noyan Tapan): The destruction of documents is "an important part of our culture," historian Taner Akcham, a representative of the progressive Turkish intelligentsia, writes in his large article concerning the purge of the Turkish archives. The article was published by the "Radical" newspaper in its Sunday appendix. In his article Akcham, at first, mentions the "Sabah" newspaper's publication from November 7 1918, where it is said that the government looked for the documents testifying about the massacre against the Armenians but couldn't find them. The newspaper's indicated article writes "Taleat Pasha and his company, probably, before leaving authority, ordered to destruct all the documents witnessing about their giving directions on the massacre. Akcham emphasizes that it was right, as the indictment against "the Young Turks", which was heard in the Istanbul Court Martial of the State of Siege in May 1919, writes that the documents concerning the administrative center of the "Ittihat" party and so-called Teshkilat Mahsuse organization were "stolen". In this connection the Prosecutor said that Aziz Bei, the Chief of Security of the region, took away with himself a lot of documents before Taleat Pasha's resignation and didn't return them. Then Taner Akcham cites numerous examples concerning the stealing and destruction of the documents and notices that during the "Ittihat's" power the following was written under all the instructions and documents concerning massacres: "Read and destruct after reading." Akcham mentions the self-defense of different officials in the courts, they reported that "they destructed the documents as they received such an order." In particular, Akcham sets as an example the 1919 action against Osman Nuri Effendi, the Deputy Director of the Chatalcha post office, who said: "I burned down all the documents in accordance with the received order. My chiefs ordered me to burn down the documents concerning the period of their power from such-and-such to such-and-such date and I did it.." The author of the article also sets other examples. According to the "Marmara" daily newspaper of Istanbul, at the end of the article the Turk historian notices: "As seen the destruction of documents is quite an important "administrative culture". For that reason some persons talk profusely with the quiet of those who know that the documents have already been destructed, that "nothing had happened with the Armenians, and all the documents are in their places." Perhaps, people of my generation will find some documents about their greats and promulgate them, arguing that beside those considering the destruction of documents as success, there are also such people that want to discover truth".
 
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Pars    So where are the missing document numbers   11/19/2005 6:31:31 PM
This is written by someone who has no idea how the Ottoman bureacracy worked. To put it simply, Ottoman government was the most complex bureacratic machine of the world. They invented modern red tape bureacracy. Nothing was ever done without proper bureacratic paperwork. Besides as the archives are now open; it is easy to prove if some of the documents are stolen. In Ottoman bureacracy, every paper had a number and date. Lack of some paperwork in certain dates are an easy way to prove some of them is stolen. Ottoman bureacracy was such a monstoriety that it is impossible to pull something like that off. Some Armenians are acusing Ittihad government of WW1 to steal some documentations. But they could not prove it by showing missing document numbers. If Osman Nuri Efendi's testimony given in the text is true. It is easy to check. He said in Chatalcha Post office certain documents in a given time perod was stolen. They just need to check the archive of Chatalcha post office; if some of the document numbers are missing in the given time period. As you see it is rather easy to disprove such a false accusation. Do not believe everything you read.
 
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Pseudonym    RE:So where are the missing document numbers   11/19/2005 10:06:58 PM
So you are telling us that the people who wrote the records and filed them had no idea how to destroy them... Nice proof. How about this time you find some other explanation that is documented for the missing people.
 
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Pars    RE:So where are the missing document numbers   11/20/2005 4:08:14 PM
No clever. Let's say you have a document numbered 150115BT0212. Then 3 years later you destroyed it. Now you have an empty space between documents 150115BT0211 and 150115BT0213. It is easy for a researcher to find it out years later that you destroyed a document.
 
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WeAreCured    RE:Attn. tjkhan    11/28/2005 9:36:49 PM
"WeAreCured: "Id like to relay a final message to all my Turkish kindred, never lose your Turkishness. Never lose our language or culture. We belong together. No matter where in this world we may travel, never forget that tens of millions thru out history have given and devouted their whole lives so that we may keep our culture and our heritage. Never forget you are who you are because of them. Meet and integrate, but never lose and forget. And a final message to the west, get over it. Forget what people's race or religion is. Keep you own culture. If you only accepted foreigners as people and not as some different lower race, they wouldnt be in crime or have less opportunities. Racsism is a thing of the past. You can say all you want, but not accepting a country into Europe, even though you need us, even though if you reject us into the EU your going to have to allow migration from Africa and the MIddle east at increasing rates to substitute your declining population (im doing an honours in Economics so i know what im talking about). So your going to have to take in people from different cultures anyway. It might aswell be Turks, who are a mix of east and west culture." Isn't there a fundamental "disconnect" between these two paragraphs?" Yes there is a fundamental disconnection there.... I didn't write that. It seems as though you were too preoccupied with wanting to sound smart that you made a stupid mistake. You'll get em next time.
 
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