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Subject: Ukraine Elections
sanman    11/24/2004 11:32:21 AM
What's happening with the elections in Ukraine? Outgoing president's designated candidate says he won, Putin supports him, but "West" (US+EU) says it's fraudulent. So who's right? And also importantly, does this mean that Europeans will stop cribbing about who won the US elections, now that they'll be courting US support for contesting the Ukraine results? Or will Brussels insist on simultaneous review of US and Ukraine election results together? After all, I hear Bush and Putin are each alternating for anti-Christ, depending on which Euro-parliamentarian you talk to.
 
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Maple man    RE:Ukraine Elections   11/26/2004 8:01:58 PM
It's lookin like maybe the iron curtain hasn't yet ben tossed in the trash!I think we could be on the brink of another cold war,especially since the Russians declared two weeks ago that they were unveilling the most advanced and powerful ballistic missile ever made.I hope I am wrong but there is the strong chance that this spells trouble.Lets face it the Russian government does not think to highly of our opinions here in the west and they have played a role in lots of politics in that region.
 
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swhitebull    Cosmo on the Ukraine   11/29/2004 6:47:26 PM
From national review: Amidst all the turmoil in the Ukraine, I expected at least one person in the Corner to mention that nation's last foray into mainstream culture. In the great Risk episode of Seinfeld, Kramer is battling away destroying Newman's armies. While riding the subway, the following scene takes place: Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine. This comment perks up the ears of what appears to be a Russian immigrant. Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's time to put the hurt on the Ukraine. Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak. Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal. Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash it!! The Ukrainian pounds the game board, destroying it and sending army pieces flying. I think this episode should be front and center in the formulation of US policy during the current crisis. swhitebull - is Russia with us or not?
 
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sanman    RE:Ukraine Elections   11/30/2004 7:44:47 AM
I think that there's no firm pan-national consensus in favor of Yuschenko. It looks like a regional split at best -- Western Ukraine leans towards Yuschenko and Eastern Ukraine leans towards Yanuckovitch. We can see that the crisis is still at an impasse, with neither side being able to come to agreement. The Eastern Ukrainians are already gathering and talking about autonomy. Yuschenko has only added fuel to the fire by saying that he would arrest secessionists as traitors. Well, if rigging an election is undemocratic, then arresting half the country as secessionists is too. I don't consider Yuschenko to be some great voice of reason, here. When he's openly cat-calling and threatening to arrest the people in the rival political camp as traitors, then I don't think he's big leadership material, or much of a statesman. His stubborn brinksmanship is going to bust up the country. What he needs to do is acknowledge the legitimacy of the feelings of the other side, and build bridges with them. Otherwise, by continuing to play the role of the firebrand, he shouldn't be surprised when a fire breaks out. Letting in hotheads from outside like Lech Walesa was also foolish. The Poles themselves were glad to give Uncle Lech his long overdue retirement from their national stage, when his overbearing ego became too much for them to bear. Again, all of this smacks of Arafat syndrome. People who are so used to being firebrand rebels that they can't make the transition to restrained and mature statesmanlike leadership. These people will forever be invoking the name of revolution and charging quixotically at whatever windmill they can scrounge up to stoke up the masses.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Ukraine Elections   11/30/2004 10:26:23 PM
"Well, if rigging an election is undemocratic, then arresting half the country as secessionists is too. " Umm, their actions would be unconstitutional. He would be fulfilling the requirments of a democratic state were he to arrest traitors. "His stubborn brinksmanship is going to bust up the country." The country is already bust up. I think that he realizes that if the oligarchs can fix this election, than they can fix the others as well. He fears Ukraine becoming like Russia, a one-party "democracy."
 
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sanman    RE:Ukraine Elections   12/1/2004 8:44:42 AM
FinalHistorian wrote: "Umm, their actions would be unconstitutional. He would be fulfilling the requirments of a democratic state were he to arrest traitors." Ummm, is this from the Ulysses S Grant school of reasoning? By your reasoning, what constitutional mechanism was Yuschenko invoking when he used mobs to defy the verdict of the election commission? Note that I'm not defending a rigged verdict, I'm just noting the selective way in which you invoke constitutionality. "The country is already bust up. I think that he realizes that if the oligarchs can fix this election, than they can fix the others as well. He fears Ukraine becoming like Russia, a one-party "democracy."" Well, based on recent international rhetoric, the US is being called a dictatorship as well. There's some old saying about People Living in Glass Houses. I notice that Bush's quarter-billion-dollar campaign warchest was quite unprecedented in size. Looks a little 'oligarchic' don't you think? Compare it to a lesser-financed man like John McCain. He authored some anti-oligarchic legislation called the McCain-Feingold Act, which met a lot of resistance. Ever heard about it? But seriously, I think Ukraine is headed for Splitsville, if the firebrand opposition keeps up its rhetoric.
 
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Godofgamblers    sanman   12/6/2004 7:41:37 PM
Your quite right about Walesa. imagine if he had retired from public life upon the liberation of Poland; he would be a national treasure, a living piece of history. after the ire he aroused during his ill-fated presidential term of office, he's somewhat of a joke in poland. i spent a year in the ukraine and always found the ukrainian nationalist movement to be tenuous. i'm not sure if they can hold on. the russians have always had the top spots, the power and the influence. if the ukraine does remain independent, it will be a fluke (or due to western influence). you are probably right that some sort of civil strife is inevitable. the russians wouldn't mind getting odessa back either.
 
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Herc the merc    RE:Ukraine Elections   12/14/2004 4:39:44 PM
Putin is strong arming Russia back to a smaller Soviet Union- Yeltsin is gone & we will see a new phase of a Mini Soviet empire, but they still have the same problem- they are broke, but China and India will finace their arms industry. After Iraq Russia wasn't to thrilled.
 
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Herc the merc    RE:Ukraine Elections   12/14/2004 8:56:00 PM
Dioxin poisoning?? any clues??
 
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