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Subject: American support to anti-Russian terrorists ?
Alexis    9/10/2004 10:03:07 AM,3604,1299318,00.html "The Chechens' American friends The Washington neocons' commitment to the war on terror evaporates in Chechnya, whose cause they have made their own" Surprised ? See the list of members of the American Committee for Peace in Chechnya (ACPC) : They include Richard Perle (former Pentagon advise), Midge Decter (a director of the Heritage Foundation), Frank Gaffney of (Centre for Security Policy), Bruce Jackson (one-time vice-president of Lockheed Martin, now president of the US Committee on Nato), Michael Ledeen (American Enterprise Institute), James Woolsey (former CIA director), Alexander Haig, William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, Caspar Weinberger ... all of that unsurprisingly chaired by former National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, as anti-Russian as ever. Interesting, isn't it ? Things are a bit more complicated than they're supposed to be ... and Putin may have been right in denouncing the support of some Western countries to terrorist movements in Chechnya.
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Big Bad Pariah    RE:American support to anti-Russian terrorists ?   9/10/2004 10:40:23 AM
It does not suprise me at all that Richard Perle is linked to this.
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scholar    RE:American support to anti-Russian terrorists ?   9/10/2004 10:45:00 AM
Interesting, Alexis. I'm not sure what to make of it. Thanks for the post. (Perle gives me the creeps).
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displacedjim    RE:American support to anti-Russian terrorists ?   9/10/2004 11:06:39 AM
Well, if this was 1996 or even 1999 and we were talking about how the Russian military was moonscaping Chechnya for wanting to be independent, maybe that would be understandable. However, after repeated disgusting terrorist attacks by Chechens against Russian civilians and with the aid of additional Islamist terrorists intentionally targetting hundreds of children for murder, it seems pretty clear that I don't really care how much the Russians flattened Grozny; our State Dept. ought to basically abandon the Chechen "cause" in favor of the Russian fight against terrorism. Displacedjim
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celebrim    RE:American support to anti-Russian terrorists ?   9/10/2004 11:18:06 AM
"Interesting, isn't it ? Things are a bit more complicated than they're supposed to be ..." Part of recognizing that complexity is recognizing that not all Chechnyan's are terrorists, that the Russians have badly mishandled this situation in the past with the result of creating a situation in which foreign militant islamists have been able to exploit and now largely supplant the nationalist movements in Chechyna. Supporting native Chechynans that denounce acts of terror, are pro-democracy, and favor a peaceful resolution of the conflict is entirely different than supporting terrorists. In fact, Russia has painted itself into a box by denouncing the entire Chechyna movement as one of Sunni islamic terrorism. I have no problem with you wanting a little more complex analysis of the problem in Chechyna than 'black hats' and 'white hats', but if you are going to do so you have an obligation to live up to that standard instead of just trying to shuffle the hats around.
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ccooke    Chechen Asylum seekers   9/10/2004 11:23:25 AM
Apparently there are quite a few Chechen Asylum seekers in the UK and US. I was listening to one of them on Radio 4 a couple of days ago. A very civilised man, who explained in detail how bad the Russians, had been in Chechnya. But somehow, despite being repeatedly asked by the interviewer, never quite got round to condemning the massacre of innocent children…. Another case of double standards… I hope that Pres Putin will in due course send someone over to slot scumbag. They’re by sweetening the air in the UK and prising the low life off my wallet…. ccooke…..
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ccooke    Typo   9/10/2004 11:47:00 AM
That should be slot "the" scumbag
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celebrim    RE:Chechen Asylum seekers   9/10/2004 11:49:03 AM
"A very civilised man, who explained in detail how bad the Russians, had been in Chechnya. But somehow, despite being repeatedly asked by the interviewer, never quite got round to condemning the massacre of innocent children�. Another case of double standards�" Perhaps. There is a more likely answer. My guess is that alot of the asylum seekers in the US have political ambitions. My guess is that the 'civilized' speaker you listened to gave a very 'nuanced' answer to a direct question. This is called 'straddling the issue' and it isn't just Chechens that are guilty of it, but politicians and oridinary 'civilized' people of every country. They may have different reasons for straddling the issue, but alot of people are doing it. In the case of the Chechen in question, my guess is that he's positioning himself to not offend in large group of Chechen separatists regardless of their beliefs. But the problem with this - beyond the obvious fact that evil must be denounced and resisted - is that when conflict reaches the stage of the truly horrific, you lose the right to a 'moderate' position. When the Nazi's start shipping Jews off to be gassed and incinerated, you as a German no longer have a right to a moderate position no matter how conveinent it may be, and no matter how much you'd prefer not to think about things like that. When that starts happening, you either stand against it, or you are standing with it. If you stand by and silently watch the boxcars be loaded, or the bombs be planted in the schools while the kids are dying of heat exaustion and the teachers are being raped, then you are just as complicit in that action as the guy holding the machine gun. And we must not only condemn every one else. That's hypocracy. You have to condemn every American that doesn't want to be interupted from thier ordinary concerns and the latest episode of Scrubs or The Apprentice and just doesn't want to think about terrorism, and denounces as the enemy anyone that happens to remind them that the massacre of school children could happen here and would likely play out very similarly unless we take uncomfortable and perhaps even frightening steps to prevent it. We have to condemn anyone who no longer wants to think about the unthinkable, because the unthinkable has happened, and is happening, and will happen again unless we start thinking about it. The fact of the matter is that there are alot of ordinary Americans doing the same sort of fence straddling, and saying, "Well, I don't want to condemn the murder of school children, because the Russians hands aren't clean either, and really I'd rather not think about such things because it makes my head hurt and to be honest it frightens me. So please let me return to my sheltered civilized life, because if I close my eyes and listen to pop music it makes the barbarians go away."
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FJV    RE:Chechen issue should be considered seperate   9/10/2004 12:23:54 PM
It is not the Chechen issue that causes these *^*^%$ to attack school children. That's just the excuse of the day that they're using for their own agenda. They have their own designs that are totally seperate to any issues with Chechen independance. (These guys would be perfectly happy with Chechnia being annexed by Iran). It's this whole jihad with the rest of the world ideology that motivates these *^*%%. If we would resolve any Chechnia issues today these guys would do the same thing with a new excuse tommorrow.
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ccooke    RE:Chechen Asylum seekers Celebrim   9/10/2004 12:35:31 PM
As I said “A very civilized man” but he would not condemn it… Therefore he is not civilized and just because he sounds “the part” he is no less guilty for it. No matter what the cause there is no excuse for killing innocent people. Notice how they run to the UK and US for protection, because they are afraid the Russians will hand out to them what they have done to others…. As you say, you are on one side or the other. ccooke…..
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