Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Denmark Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Greetings from Finland
mustavaris    3/3/2006 1:47:31 PM
http://home.doramail.com/matron:doramail.com/english.htm
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2
TheArmchairCmd    RE:Greetings from Finland   3/5/2006 2:52:53 PM
Mustavaris, Off topic: You guys seriously intend to use fixed artillery fortifications ?!
http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/pics/sivu153.jpg> Finland's fixed Coastal Artillery is one of the best in the world.
It sounds very cool, but in the age of PGMs and stand off missiles...? http://www.mil.fi/maavoimat/kalustoesittely/00152_en.dsp
 
Quote    Reply

mustavaris    RE:Greetings from Finland   3/6/2006 2:57:07 PM
Those systems were updated during the 1980s and early 1990s and some of them have already been phased out of service [among them all the lighter models I believe]. Some of them are still in use like the heavy gun in the picture. The reasons for these are following: 1# We tend to keep equipment as long as its usable, so those guns will serve as long as they are usable and we got reservists that can use them, I am not familiar whether any new troops besides professionals are trained to use them. It´s the same with some other equipment too, we don´t train new conscript troops to use them, they are not modernized and only minimally maintained until they are not safely usable. 2# The most probable enemy of ours is still Russia and those guns with some air defence around are still more or less battle worthy, Russians at the momemnt don´t have large scale pin point hitting ability while against more sophisticated enemy those batteries are only a little more than sitting duck targets. But if you cannot hit them precisely they are not easily taken out. Our philosophy is not to make our country impossible to conquer, but too dear to take. Anyway, the most important reason is that we maintain big military with huge reserves and we keep the stuff as long as it works to have some weapons for all the troops. We got rid off 1930´s 105mm field artillery in 1998...and that was because we ran out of ammunition: the artillery troops used them for cheap really fire excercises because we had a lot of WWII era ammunition that were used with new detonators. I personally handled some WWII era 120mm mortar rounds in 1998... I think that they were 1943 and 1944 vintage at that time. Another story that reveals the habit to keep old stuff is about the fact that when I was in the army [1998-1999] we were trained to use Nagant rifles, the WWII classic and Suomi submachine guns...There seemed to be quite a few of them in the armoury. And my friend´s father who served in the ministry of interior affairs were putting some old weapons in long term storage in the late 1980´s near one airfield in northern Finland. There was a buried bunker that had some Maxim machine guns, some heavy machine guns and WWII era Stug-III... Just in case, this country used to be full of those arms caches. Now some of them have been destroyed, but many exists. We are working hard to keep ourselves armed to teeth I guess. But to return to the topic, the era of fixed coastal artillery is gone by and when the Russians start to modernize their Baltic fleet and demonstrate the ability to hit with surgical precision they will be somehow withdrawn in silence... And in that time we are going to see a new missile in service.
 
Quote    Reply

Thomas3    RE:Greetings from Finland - TAC   3/6/2006 8:00:56 PM
Don't knock old fashioned heavy coastal artillery! We used it ourselves at Stevns among other places, the correctors were like seeing an exhibition in the Technical museum. Real watchmakers art! We put them to sleep for the very same reason artillery systems (as in Finland). They ran out of current artillery shells. During the cold war they were very handy - not alone, but as acomplement to other weapons. Finland has - like we - learned the hard way that there are no silver bullits. Alone these coastal guns can be taken out, but when the eney also have to contend with aircraft, torpedo boats, submarines and corvettes (with a punch) and throw in the odd squadron of tanks, AT THE SAME TIME then the enemys problem get really interesting -among other things: The planning staff is fast running out of space to place their own forces! Finally considering old weapons: What does it cost to train conscription personel to use these old guns - next to nothing compared to the cost of new systems - and training personel to use them! As for the old handguns: Finland is THE terrain for lightly armed skimobile troops - and as any finn with some selfrespect is able to take an axe - chop down the two nearest trees, kill an odd animal - and voila he is mobile on skies. Furthermore keeping these arms in longterm storage cost nothing - so why spend good money on destroying them. In fact the Civil defense in Denmark had - not so long ago - uniform from 1864 in storage with the aim of being able to clothe people after one disaster or another in something to keep the frost out. The Russians have learned the hard way, that the finns talk slowly, but works fast with a vodka bottle and a knife, when they get pi$$ed orff. As the finnish proverb: Any kitchen is an armory and every farm has a still.
 
Quote    Reply

TheArmchairCmd    RE:Greetings from Finland - Thomas/Mustavaris   3/6/2006 8:12:50 PM
Don't knock old fashioned heavy coastal artillery! We used it ourselves at Stevns among other places, the correctors were like seeing an exhibition in the Technical museum. Real watchmakers art! We put them to sleep for the very same reason artillery systems (as in Finland). They ran out of current artillery shells. During the cold war they were very handy - not alone, but as acomplement to other weapons. Finland has - like we - learned the hard way that there are no silver bullits. Alone these coastal guns can be taken out, but when the eney also have to contend with aircraft, torpedo boats, submarines and corvettes (with a punch) and throw in the odd squadron of tanks, AT THE SAME TIME then the enemys problem get really interesting -among other things: The planning staff is fast running out of space to place their own forces! The Poles had the solution ready for Stevns- and the Langelandsfortress. 1 40kT device each. Also solves the problem re PGM's. The fortresses where some of the first stuff to go as part of the 'peace dividend.' And of course also because we, like the Finnes, used old WW2 German guns for them that eventually ran out of ammo. Finally considering old weapons: What does it cost to train conscription personel to use these old guns - next to nothing compared to the cost of new systems - and training personel to use them! But these guns looked quite advanced and new (but your points are taken Mustavaris). As for the old handguns: Finland is THE terrain for lightly armed skimobile troops - and as any finn with some selfrespect is able to take an axe - chop down the two nearest trees, kill an odd animal - and voila he is mobile on skies. Furthermore keeping these arms in longterm storage cost nothing - so why spend good money on destroying them. I don't think I made this an issue. :) In fact the Civil defense in Denmark had - not so long ago - uniform from 1864 in storage with the aim of being able to clothe people after one disaster or another in something to keep the frost out. Heard of that one too. So it's not urban myth? The Russians have learned the hard way, that the finns talk slowly, but works fast with a vodka bottle and a knife, when they get pi$$ed orff. As the finnish proverb: Any kitchen is an armory and every farm has a still. I know several Finnes. I make sure to disarm them before we go on a binge. :)
 
Quote    Reply

mustavaris    RE:Greetings from Finland - Thomas/Mustavaris   3/7/2006 12:07:39 AM
Hmmm,... I havent ever paid much attention to coastal artillery and now I have checked the facts: the 130mm gun in picture was developed in 1970s and the serial production started in the early 1980s. They are equipped with fully computerized fire control, laser designators and thermal imaging besides being able to receive target data from any other source inegrated to the defence network.. There are no new modernization plans, but they are trying to get/develop ammunition that has longer range because the recent types have maximum range of 25 km. And no, we havent gotten rid off the smaller calibre turrets. I thought so, but its not true. We still have 100mm turrets which are basically the same used in T55... they were obtained in 1970s and in 1990 a modernization program was started. Both systems serve as a deterrent besides mobile coastal artillery and missiles, small ships and sea mines. But the bottom line in the report is: the future of development is directed by the unpredictable nature of threat component in the eastern baltic.The fixed coastal artillery will serve well in the future.
 
Quote    Reply

mustavaris    Finnish fortitude-   3/7/2006 3:07:41 AM
I wouldn´t count on average Finns ability to survive out there anymore... Something like 20% of each age group haven´t ever used skis for example and in my unit there were people who couldnt swim nor ski and one talented one couldnt even drive a bicycle. We still have those hard rural people and the city dwellers who know their roots, but they both represent a diminishing race. I think the strongest point in our defence is still the attitude, the most of the Finns [I belive 3/4, at least 2/3] would support the war as a way to defend the country even if we would be losing it. Our military has strong support from left to right and the pride about Winter war is strong among all the generations, even among the younger ones like mine [I just got 27]. In the end, we are the only nation that has defeated Soviet Union in international real fire excercises, and we did it twice. And I believe that our attribute of always comparing ourselves to others and our ancestors plays in our hands in this matter, there are hardly any Finns doesnt want to be better than his/her predecessors and not surpassing them is almost a treason. That´s why I have a strong belief that we would wage a helluva war if we were threatend.
 
Quote    Reply

angryjohn    Hyva Suomi   3/7/2006 7:20:36 AM
A friend of mine (RM Captain) worked with the Finns in the balkans. He said they were very very good.
 
Quote    Reply

mustavaris    RE:Finnish fortitude-   3/7/2006 9:29:07 AM
My earlier post is a really good example... I should never write during the mornings, or during the late evenings. Cheers...
 
Quote    Reply

Thomas3    TAC   3/7/2006 8:14:33 PM
Solution for Stevns. Sure one 40 kT should do it; but that is an awfull lot of blast for an old gun. Another point is that they would not have been able to use other nukes in that neighbourhood for some time after that nuke, and what was the guncrew??? And they would have to use nukes. Old handguns: point taken. In fact as an observer I was in favour of us getting old Husquarna submashineguns and reserve the modern stuff to those who would be using them for a living. 1864 uniforms: I heard it from a Civil Defence officer. And judging by the date of their equipment (their lorrys were rivetted together just after the wheel was invented) it sounds probable to me. About drinking with Finnes: Well as long as You watch your siblants and don't wear a Brøndby scarf - You'll be allright. Mind You it can be tedious, as they do not want small talk to get in the way of serious drinkink - some of them even develop a taste for paint remover - I think Nitromors is THE flavour for the discriminating palate.
 
Quote    Reply

Thomas3    RE:Finnish fortitude-mustavaris   3/7/2006 8:21:30 PM
Well there is something in the genes: I read somewhere that a genetic variation in finns make them more resilent in winter sports. And what do you compare to? I'm 50 years old; but there are other 50 year old that I can beat (admittedly VERY few - and punkturing their wheelchair is considered unsporting).
 
Quote    Reply
1 2



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics