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Subject: More on Our Wonderful Friends - President Bush -YOU Should Be Ashamed
swhitebull    5/15/2005 5:22:39 PM
OUR SAUDI FRIENDS [Andrew Stuttaford - National Review Here, via the Sunday Telegraph http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/15/nmitch15.xml is a little reminder of the true nature of the Saudi regime. It comes from the account of a Scotsman arrested and charged in a bomb plot. I’ll spare you some of the details (they can be found in the report), but this is worth repeating here: “Mr Mitchell's torturers wanted him to sign a confession which implicated Simon MacDonald, an official in the British embassy (he is now the British ambassador in Israel). "They had his picture," Mr Mitchell remembers. "They wanted me to say he had ordered the bombing and that I was working for MI6. It was all absolutely crazy. I invented some names of people I said had ordered me to do the bombing. They discovered the names were invented the next day and beat me extra hard as a result." Mr Mitchell signed a preposterous confession in which he claimed to have detonated the bomb that killed Christopher Rodway while he was driving his car. "That was easily disprovable. I had receipts which proved that my car was being repaired when I was supposed to have detonated the bomb. The Saudis knew we were innocent from the start," he insists. "I had friends in the police force who told me that they knew the bomb had been planted by Islamic extremists, probably al-Qaeda." And so is this: “He was then placed in alone in a tiny cell with no windows. He would remain there for 15 months. "I wanted to die. I thought I was going to die anyway: I was convinced that the only way I would get out of that prison was in a coffin." Earlier, he had been taken out for a trial in a building on "Chop-Chop Square", the notorious location of Riyadh's public beheadings. The trial lasted 10 minutes. The chief prosecutor was Ibrahim, the man who had been his chief torturer. The judges asked Mr Mitchell if he had confessed to the bombing. He tried to explain that he had been tortured - they dismissed that, and announced his punishment: crucifixion, then partial beheading, after which his body would be left out to rot in public.” I understand realpolitik as much as the next person – and I also understand that its necessities can mean that democratic states can have to keep some ugly company, but reading accounts like this underlines the fact that when George Bush goes that extra mile to kow-tow to Riyadh, even holding hands with the tyrants responsible for horrors such as this, he disgraces himself – and embarrasses America. Or at least he ought to. swhitebull
 
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Pseudonym    Another Reason the War on Terror is a joke   6/2/2005 5:44:49 PM
It's funny how one of the most anti-american groups of people is our ally. While we sit and watch Saudi's stream into Iraq to martyr themselves, not mentioning 9/11, and hear stories of their Princes being killed off when word of their ties to terrorists comes up, one wonders why we didn't do something about what looks like one of the largest producers of martyrs in the Middle East. Oh and about those Princes that "died", shouldn't htey have been interrogated first to find anymore rotten apples in the Family of Saud? Or would that have begun exposing the true complicity of the Saudi Royal Family and their ties to terrorists? Couldn't have that now could we.
 
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Desertmole    Reluctant Allies   6/7/2005 1:59:41 AM
Ok, swhitebull and pseudonym, where to you propose to get gas for your car? Are you prepared to pay, say, $10+ a gallon? Are you prepared to freeze in the dark next winter? Like it or not, we are forced to rely on the Saudis for a prtion of our oil. The Saudis are not our friends, but they are our suppliers. Secondly, it is better to trade with them and have some influence than not to be engaged and have no visibility on their actions or a means to influence them.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Reluctant Allies - DesertMole   7/1/2005 7:49:57 PM
There is a different between maintaining a business relationship and giving the Saudi leaders the prestige of a photo op on the front lawn of the White House with a US President. I am not proposing we end our relationship - of course I do not want to spend $10 per gallon of gas - but I would like to reduce our dependence on Saudi oil -I will do my part by not buying an SUV. But if you are suggesting we put up with their financing of terrorists against the US to get oil, I say there has to be a better solution - perhaps we invaded the wrong country.
 
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Pseudonym    RE:Reluctant Allies - DesertMole   7/1/2005 11:20:43 PM
I've been thinking that since we went at Afghanistan. I was worried then that we would get only one big fight before the world came down on us. In all the sports i played i always used to go out and pick the best player on the other team and then dedicate myself to stopping him. My teams did pretty damn good. We shoulda knocked out the major providers of terrorist related areas first, i.e. the Saudi's and their Middle Eastern School Plan. Now that I doubt we have the political will to take out Saudi, I am sorely hoping that we open up enough oil production to make up for Saudi Arabia, then stick an embargo on their ass for the next ten years. Might take awhile for them to run out of money, but watching news of a Saudi Economic Collapse would be a way to spend a night or two. Once they have no money they will have other things than terrorism to worry about, like how to feed their martyrs, i mean children.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Reluctant Allies - DesertMole   7/1/2005 11:27:59 PM
Agreed.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Reluctant Allies - DesertMole   7/6/2005 2:27:22 PM
Any idea on what our long term plan is regarding Saudi Arabia? Do we ever plan to square accounts with the sorry bastards in their "government"? One of the reasons I supported the war on Iraq was that if it put US troops on the Saudi border, perhaps that was Bush's plan (my dad made that point in one of our endless debates and it's a good one)...but what are we really doing to make sure that Saudi Arabia's government does not support terrorism and that they reform their political and economic system so as not to be a breeding ground for Al-Queda recruitment?
 
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swhitebull    RE:Reluctant Allies - Pseudonym - Alternative Strategy   7/6/2005 3:16:53 PM
...Now that I doubt we have the political will to take out Saudi, I am sorely hoping that we open up enough oil production to make up for Saudi Arabia, then stick an embargo on their ass for the next ten years. Might take awhile for them to run out of money, but watching news of a Saudi Economic Collapse would be a way to spend a night or two. Once they have no money they will have other things than terrorism to worry about, like how to feed their martyrs, i mean children. ... DRAIN THEM DRY. REALLY. Completely, totally milk them for all the oil they have. And as fast. If inflation rises, even better. They get export less-valued PAPER dollars, we get tangible commmodity. Take the ensuing 20 years to REALLY develop alternative energy sources and technologies - tar sands, recycling, hydropower, etc. Then, when the oil bubble is dry, sit back and watch the ensuing chaos. The Sa'udis have shown themselves incapable of managing their monetary wealth as it is, with a 60% unemployment rate, net national DEBT, increasing population under age age 30, and 0 job growth. What? Mohammed doesnt want to work as a latrine cleaner because he paid Filipinas to so it? OOOooo too bad. maybe you should have been spending the money on infrastructure developemnt, job creation , education for EVERYONE, free and open elections, etc, and NOT on spreading Wahhabi-driven maddrasahs throughout the of the world, palaces, and your princes'skanky hoes in London. Try eating some sand for a while. The Quran is a wonderful book, but how tasty are its words when that's all that left to eat when you cant afford to import food anymore. In 20 years, when China will be the main economic rival to the United States, we should be sitting pretty energy independent if we really start acting now. The Middle East will fall like a house of cards if they dont get their act together. swhitebull
 
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swhitebull    RE:Reluctant Allies - DesertMole   7/6/2005 3:22:12 PM
...In all the sports i played i always used to go out and pick the best player on the other team and then dedicate myself to stopping him. My teams did pretty damn good. We shoulda knocked out the major providers of terrorist related areas first, i.e. the Saudi's and their Middle Eastern School Plan... Hmm, interesting approach. Most of MY friends, shall we say, were "athletically challenged." I was not. When we had pickup games, it was mosre important that my friends were NOT picked last, so there were hurt feelings. I was invariably a team captain in those games, and always picked my friends, regardless of their athletic abilities or lack thereof. Result? We ALWAYS played on the same team, knew each other's strengths and weaknesses inside and out, had high cohesiveness and morale, AND usually won our games against most of the opposition. Even if they were geeks. swhitebull - I hate to lose, but I hate to lose my friends even more so.
 
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ProDemocracy    RE:Reluctant Allies - Pseudonym - Alternative Strategy   7/6/2005 3:26:05 PM
I hope President Bush is reading that post because I am all about your Alternative Strategy...works for me man.
 
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Pseudonym    swhitebull   7/7/2005 12:36:30 AM
I'm talking about Club Soccer, baseball, basketball, and football competitively, i picked my friends too in pickup games. I knew i wasn't the best player out there, but by negating the best enemy player i left my teams good players more openings to do good.
 
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