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Subject: US Army considering renewed production of 105mm M119
doggtag    8/6/2004 5:34:58 PM
Over at Jane's Defence Weekly, http://jdw.janes.com/ there is an August 3 post: "The US Army is planning to re-introduce production of the M119A1 105mm towed howitzer, the US variant of the BAE Systems RO Defence 105mm Light Gun, to meet a shortfall of 105mm artillery that will result from the Army's reorganization, service officials said. The Army is looking for 275 new howitzers: 111 for active duty units and 164 for reserve components." (full article is avaliable to subscribers) Comparing the 105mm M119A1 howitzer, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m119.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m119.htm to the 120mm M120 mortar, http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m120.htm http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m120.htm What are the advantages the howitzer has over the mortar? From what I see, the howitzer's RAP can reach 19km, whereas the mortar in US service does not yet have such an extended range projectile, limiting the mortar to just over 7km, roughly half the range of the M119A1 howitzer. Also, the 120mm NATO-standard mortars have PGMs available (such as Strix, Bussard, and a few others), whereas the 105mm howitzers in US service do not yet have any PGMs (the 105mm STAFF round is not configured as separate-loading ammo for the howitzer, but could be implemented). Russian tube-launched missiles, by varying the propellant charge device, can be fired from 100mm guns (the 9M117 "Stabber"), including both the 2A70 of the BMP-3 and various Russian-built towed guns. Incorporating something like STAFF into the howitzer package could afford a self-defense weapon or an additional PGM for point targets. Even a new generation of PGM rounds developed for 105mm systems could present a defense contractor with another market to exploit, as several nations still employ 105mm artillery. The US does utilize a self-propelled version of the 120mm mortar, the M121 (in the M1064A3 vehicle). But to date, no self-propelled 105mm systems are in US service, although UDLP is testing various concepts that may prove favorable to US requirements. It is interesting that several NATO armies do still use towed 105mm guns/howitzers, yet very few still use 105mm SP systems. These countries do, however, utilize both SP and towed 155mm guns, and towed and SP 120mm mortars. Perhaps, with the desire to field more 105mm fire-support weapons, the US may yet consider some form of 105mm SP system. There were conceptual studies for a 105mm LEO-based system incorporated into the Stryker 8x8 chassis (as is UDLP's V2C2 weapon mentioned in another thread) and perhaps an option for the FCS NLOS-C (which currently seems to be favoring a 155mm/L38 weapon). Looking at the most cost-effective platform to develop an efficient SP mount for the US 105, (and this is entirely speculative), the LAV-25/Stryker 8x8 chassis and the stretched M113/MTVL hull are the two most favorable platforms in US inventory (or most readily acquired). Even reconditioning the older M113s (5 road wheels per side instead of the MTVL's 6) into the RISE standard with a slightly cut-down rear hull and incorporating a turreted 105, to vaguely resemble the 122mm 2S1 Gvozdika or the Abbot 105mm SP gun, would afford a shell-fragment/small arms proof artillery mount. This platform would easily fall under the US's stringent 20-ton weight limit for air-deployability. A four man crew would be sufficient for the relatively cramped M113 and Stryker hulls (considering a 105mm howitzer turret has just been installed). An autoloader would not be necessary for the 30-40lb 105mm shells. Modifications to some of the turreted 120mm direct-fire-capable mortars might allow the turret to swap out one weapon for another (as an example, the Russian 120mm 2S31 Vena self-propelled system can function as both artillery or mortar, depending on the propellant charge used: higher pressures for longer-ranged artillery modes). These under-20-ton hulls would have no problem handling the recoil of a 105mm howitzer. To go the more expensive route, there would be no reason a newer, longer ranged 105mm artillery piece could not be re-introduced into the M109-series hulls (the M108 was indeed the same hull, but mounting a 105mm weapon, and a considerably larger amount of 105mm shells). Such a system most likely will not see US service, though. There is also the RDM MOBAT, a 105mm/L33 ordnance mounted on a firing platform at the back of a 4x4 cargo truck: such a concept would fit the US 4x4 FMTV ideally, with minimal expense to implement as opposed to developing a fully enclosed armored SP system. Affording the M119A1 such a mobile capability could prove ideal. Perhaps even a light-capacity knuckleboom gantry/crane could afford the option to remove the gun from the vehicle and place it onto its ground-based chassis/firing platform? The pedestal on the cargo truck could be configured for rapid removal, so the truck would be available as a
 
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doggtag    RE:Now I understand   9/6/2004 6:52:47 PM
Sam, I stand corrected on many of my misconceptions, given your credentials. But, although the Caesar, at 18,500 kg can fit in a C-130, the South African G-6, at 42,500 kg unloaded, cannot. However, the towed G-5 155mm ordnance CAN, by means of its APU, "self-propel" itself into the hold of a C-130. There also is the thing what surprises me most: in Desert Storm, the US was concerned about its tube artillery (M-109s and M-198s) being out-ranged by Iraqi (Bull-developed) 155mm guns (towed and SP), which routinely could reach near-40km ranges (typically 38-39km, with the massive 210mm Al Fao, a scaled-up G6 look-alike, affording a range of 57km with 241 pound ERFB-BB shells) while the US was lucky to get to 36km with RAP/ER. I always wondered why the US has become so reliant on the USAF providing the long-range anti-surface aspect where artillery could perform the role. The longer ordnance of Crusader would have offered those ranges. but instead we opted to X that program, and go for the shorter-caliber NLOS-C, relying solely on new and expensive extended range guided shells to reach those 40km+ ranges. The M-777 Ultra Lightweight Field Howitzer (UFH)is in the same boat. Was the US too proud to borrow another nation's idea (longer ranged tube ordnance) for its own services? Or do we anticipate we will always have sufficient air assets available to provide the "longer reach" our artillery cannot? Certainly the newest MLRS rockets can reach further (70km), but those are 12-shot (or 6 for HIMARS) weapons which take time to reload, and the additional pods take up considerable room. The NLOS-C supposedly also fits a 39 caliber ordnance (the concept demonstrator's video over at UDLP's site shows a towing pintle on the barrel, suggesting it to be the same piece as the UFH, thus affording commonality), and can only reach the 40km+ ranges with the more expensinve long range guided rounds. Since it too will only be firing over a limited frontal arc, then it only seems logical to me to fit the more capable 45 and 52 caliber ordnances (36km+ and 40km+, with South Africa's latest extended range shells from the 52 caliber piece hitting beyond 60km, with 70 anticipated.) Realizing APUs add weight to a system, I am also surprised that the US never opted for such systems on our towed guns (I realize 105mm doesn't really need it), but mounting such a system to our 155mm could also offer them a small amount of movement/self-deployment under their own power. As we make further advancements in electric drives and fuel cell technology, this seems to be an ideal application: artillery doesn't need massive power:weight ratios, only sufficient "juice" to drive itself into cargo aircraft and change position a few kilometers down the road (most APU-equipped 155mm guns can "putter along" about 15km/hour over a distance of 75-100km, but normally the additional motive power is only used for self-emplacement/gun laying, ammo handling, and loading/unloading from aircraft. I'm not suggesting we complicate the hell out of everything. I'm just suggesting that, in our quest to become more mobile, towed guns requiring considerable man-handling to get around when vehicles aren't available are only suitable for fire base operations. And that seems ideal if every conflict we get involved in is reminiscient of Viet Nam (suits some areas of A-stan just fine.) I still say, for ops like Iraqi Freedom, a lighter and more mobile system is necessary, not towed guns. Certainly the turreted, direct-fire capable mortars afford that. Or perhaps even a concept like the 105mm gun "semi-turreted" (frontal arc only) on the tail end of 8x8 chassis like UDLP and GDLS have proposed. Or it could even be configured, like the 122mm 2S1, onto a modified M113/MTVL hull. Better yet, an "American version" of the 2S9/S0-120 Anona (based on a BMD chassis) or 2S31 Vena (based on a BMP-3 chassis) Russian 120mm "combination gun" would afford a level of SP artillery in a light platform that is lacking in current US battalions and companies. The 2S9 only has frontal-arc firing capability (35L, 35R) while the 2S31 has 360. The 2S9 turret is also installed on the 2S23 8x8 BTR-80 chassis, and is also limited to 35L, 35R traverse. But "Western" designed mortar turrets DO afford 360 operation: AMOS (of Sweden) which CAN mount up to 4 barrels in one "quad mounting" (was tested feasible on a CV-90 chassis, as well as a twin mount on fast attack/patrol boats.) There's a decent video of the AMOS available over at: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread18534/pg1 And there is also AMS (Royal Ordnance), which has sparked US interest (single barrel) and is used by Saudi Arabia installed on LAVs (NOT the same as USMC LAV-120.) Also, several nations DO use 120mm mortars with recoil-dampening systems effecitively from LAV-type 8x8 chassis: the 120R 2M by TDA (Thomson Brandt), for example. And also the 120mm Bighorn mortar from RUAG. My argument STILL
 
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doggtag    RE:Now I understand   9/6/2004 7:11:31 PM
At 36.9MB, the video is pretty big, but worth it. We get to see the system installed on the boat. Ant the recoil on both the boat and 6x6 chassis (Patria's XA-180/185 series trials vehicle, although it DOES resemble a Pandur) is negligible, and certainly within the capabilities of M113, LAV, and Stryker hulls (can even be sized to fit different turret rings.) Shucks, it could even be installed on US ships in littoral areas (maybe as an option on LCS in place of the 57mm Mk 3 gun.) Besides, any AFV pointing TWO barrels at me is gonna be low on my priority list of targets, wheeled or not. Having direct-fire capability certainly would ward off and RPG freaks hunting convoys and Humvees. And if 120mm seems overkill for some more urban environments (blast radius), then there is certainly the option of using a twin 81mm. Unless you plan on playing OK Corral with an MBT, the 81mm is sufficient for whatever target you need taken down. Besides, a pair beats a single any day..
 
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Worcester    RE:Now I understand=doggtag   9/6/2004 7:52:38 PM
"towed guns requiring man-handling when vehicles aren't around...suitable for firebases" 105 light gun attached to a Hummer/1 ton Rover with onboard ammo and comms is the standard Chinook load in 1 lift. Gun and vehicle land together...attached. Ready to fire/move. The same Chinook can then lift another 196 x 105mm rounds/charges to the gun per lift. Support for most battalion attacks is planned to need between 100-200 rounds per gun on site. It is the speed of "instant" Chinook deployment and "instant" replen, each in a single lift which makes this an attractive air mobile combination of gun and aircraft. One lift and a gun is firing/moving; two lifts and you're ready to support a battalion attack. The essence of the air mobile doctrine is mobility - mobility protects, not range of fire. It's why USMC and 101 Abn Div are replacing anything which can't do the single lift job; and why the UK has almost an all Chinook force. Worked well for them in taking the Al Faw peninsular last year.
 
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AlbanyRifles    M1857 - Sam   9/7/2004 3:33:00 PM
I will admit that I knew that designation and nomenlcature because of a paper I did in graduate school on the lessons learned in the Mexican War and how they were applied to the US Army for the Civil War. Like everyone else, I just called them 12 pound Napoleons until that point. It's the old using precise terms precisely.
 
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AlbanyRifles    HIMARS & ATACMS   9/7/2004 3:33:46 PM
Does anyone know if HIMARS can shoot ATACMS "off the shelf" or are there software upgrades required?
 
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doggtag    RE:HIMARS & ATACMS   9/7/2004 7:56:21 PM
It seems that all the software necessary is contained in the IFCS (Improved Fire Control System. http://www.army-technology.com/projects/himars.html http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mlrs.html It certainly seems the system is capable, off the production line, to handle the full envelope of the MLRS weapons..
 
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technoid    RE:US Army considering renewed production of 105mm M119   9/21/2004 12:46:48 PM
In regards to this new production of M119ers. Here is an article I found on the web about this and some discussion on rockets and missiles versus artillery. It appears that the US army has already gotten the money to buy these new M119s. Anyone know what improvements they are making to them? I'd sure like to see some advanced technology put into a new system. I think the US is out gunned in artillery and needs more range and accuracy. http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/article.cfm?Id=1641 I'm not the most computer savy person but I have really discovered some fun surfing the web and finding information such as this that is available to us every day non-military types.
 
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AlbanyRifles    M119 & 20 year old system   9/21/2004 1:05:31 PM
a. So what? The M2 HB .50 caliber machine gun was and is an 80 year old design which works well. b. The key point in all of this is the M119 is an interim solution...i.e., get something which works pretty well out there now and letthe R&D guys get you something better when it comes along. c. Rockets don't penetrate overhead cover very well but tube artillery can do a great job. d. Accuracy at the 40km range for 105mm is not an issue....that is what the HIMARS is for. Remember, we are talking about deploying the M119 system with the infantry UAs, which don't need to worry too much about pinpoint accuracy at that range.
 
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doggtag    gotta love military terminology   9/21/2004 2:32:26 PM
"enhanced forceable entry cannon"? Wonder who comes up with these concept names? Forceable entry makes it sound like an assault weapon... The UDLP V2C2 we've posted up several times seems to be a possible follow-on contender (for an SP gun.) It can be configured on the aft section of a modified Stryker hull (but most likely will be incorporating a recoil spade of some sort.) And with the technology gleaned from the 155mm and 127mm PGM shells, certainly a 105mm PGM can be developed at some point down the road (the French have an IR seeking round available for their 100mm naval gun.) Plus, the US does have the technology of the 105mm-fired STAFF round, which could be incorporated into a howitzer-compatible round, affording limited anti-vehicle fire if needed (self-defense?). But the fact that 105mm out to 20km or so is more accurate that 155mm at 40km is a key sell point: mortars can't get that far. And 155mm systems have weight limitations (gun and ammunition.) Plus, there is still plenty room for growth in the 105mm caliber to develop additional rounds for additional applications, in addition to the large family of 105mm ammunition already available. Besides, the 105mm M119 can offer some direct fire shooting that mortars cannot..
 
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