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 Subject: Accuracy - arty vs. mortars and size DeeJay    1/6/2004 12:33:27 PM I'm haviung a difficult time finding accuracy for arty and mortars, which I believe is measured by circular error of probability (CEP). I'm trying to find CEP's for indirect firing systems with the goal of figuring if arty or mortars are more accurate, and if lighter systems are more accurate than heavy. I believe US arty has a CEP of 17 meters for 105 and 155mm, and that's all I've really found.

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 hybrid    RE:Accuracy - arty vs. mortars and size   1/6/2004 1:42:16 PM Depends on the ranges you're talking about and the size of the rounds.

 Mark F    RE:Accuracy - arty vs. mortars and size   1/6/2004 9:48:14 PM 17 meters in direct fire at short range maybe. At maximum ranges your talking CEP's into the hundreds of meters for tube artillery firing conventional rounds.

 ArtyMan    RE:Accuracy - arty vs. mortars and size   1/30/2004 1:50:44 PM During direct fire missions the accuray requirment for artillery is stated as a probability of hit. For the M777 this is 0.3, basically you have at least a 30 % chance of hitting a standard NATO target at 1500 meters. For Indirect fires the measurement is indeed CEP (Circular Error Probable) The actual calculation to determine the CEP for a weapon system is rather complex and requires extensive trialing and statistical analysis of the fall of shot data. I know I have spent the last few years doing it!!! But it can be approximated to mean a circle with centre at target inside which 50% of rounds fired will land. For any weapon system the requirement is broken down into a low angle and high angle requirment. Low angle means a firing solution below 800 mils QE, and High angle means a firing solution above 800 mils QE. For obvious reason I cannot give out the actual CEP data for the M777 howitzer, but I can tell you what the requirment is. Desired Low angle CEP is 60 Meters. Threshold Low angle CEP is 120 Meters, Desired High Angle CEP is 150 meters, Threshold High Angle CEP is 275 meters. It is further specified that this must be attained at a range of 25,000 meters using a 2hour stale Meterological Message, and unconditiond charges and rounds. The contract for Low Rate production has been awarded so I leave it to you to determine whether the requirement was met or exceeded. Having never been involved with a mortar system I cannot comment on Mortar CEP. But I would expect that as the range is considerable shorter they would have a much tighter CEP requirement.

 macawman    RE:Accuracy - arty vs. mortars and size   2/7/2004 12:41:30 AM I think accuracy of mobile mortar systems are about to improve significantly. Dragon Fire II weighs only 3,200 pounds, and will be capable of deployment in a towed, heliborne and mounted versions. Dragon Fire II is the follow-on experimentation phase of the program, which utilizes a towed by a tactical vehicle (such as the HUMMV) or internally mounted on a LAV The mortar has a range of 8,200 meters (13,000 m' with rocket assisted projectiles). It can fire 10 rounds per minute for 2 minutes, or four rounds per minute sustained fire. The system has an on-board digital communications, navigation and computation facilities to enable effective precision fire at a closed "sensor-to-shooter" loop. The USMC Warfighting Lab is also experimenting with remote control capability and stabilization that will enable fire on the move for improved agility and responsiveness.<<< http://www.defense-update.com/products/d/dragon-fire.htm Dragon Fire II is the likely follow on to the Marine EFFS program.