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Subject: Can MLRS replaced Gun Artilery ?
murabit821    5/12/2007 6:23:41 PM
What you mean , when gun artilery be replaced with MLRS in Slovakia we have MLRS which can fire both 122mm and 227 rockets is lookd like HIMARS but you can install MLRS pod with one ATACMS or 6x 227mm or 122mm pod with 28 rockets, also new kind of 122mm rocket was purchase with GPS guide system that this system can fire ATACMS , 227mm rockets, 122mm rockets and guided 122mm rockets
 
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B.Smitty       7/20/2007 12:17:01 AM
Gun artillery will not be replace by MLRS. 

MLRSs have very long reload cycles when their ready rockets are expended. 

They also can't fire cheap, reasonably accurate, unguided munitions.  The only way to get accuracy out of a rocket is to make it guided, which is orders of magnitude more expensive.
 
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murabit821       7/20/2007 10:42:32 AM

i read in slovakian army magazin that MLRS are cheaper than SP Howitzer
(this Slovakian MLRS cost 2mil usd )

also 122mm GPS guided rockets for this MLRS are cheaper

i dont know how much is  this info based on true

http://forum.valka.cz/viewtopic.php/t/12992/title/SVK-DEU-RM-70-Modular-122mm-227mm-raketomet
 
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Jeff_F_F       7/20/2007 4:47:20 PM
I'm seeing $50K for Excaliber, $40K for GMLRS. Spendy rascals. On the other hand, I think these munitions are going to reduce the need for CAS, since with that kind of precision there is less use in having a pilot fly a bomb in, except for hardened targets and such.
 
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Ya222       7/20/2007 6:53:36 PM
you should ask the hizbullah.. the IDF shot many MLRS at them, what's better ?
 
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murabit821       7/21/2007 5:43:08 AM
:) and Hizballah fire many Rocket on israel

but for military using

current army brigades have artilery battalion 2-3x bateries with total 12-24 guns (depend on army)

Slovakia army replaced in one  brigade this artilery battalion with MLRS battalion
it is not usual found entire brigade artilery with MLRS

much better will be mixed battalion
when MLRS replaced one battery
for example artilery battalion with 1x 8 gun batery and 1x 8 MLRS battery (with ability fire cheaper 122mm rockets)





 
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Carl S       7/25/2007 10:42:56 AM
For a accurate comparison the total long term costs are needed.  Aside from the intial cost, the long term cost of all types of ammunition are required, maintinance costs, crew training cost for an entire battalion -  not just for individual weapons crew, cost of ammo transport, and cost for stratigic transport.

Form my own experince in fire planning for both weapons the cost of PGM ammo for MLRS must be considered as the primary ammo cost, if a complete replacement of cannon with a MLRS is the question.  Ordinary dumb HE rounds from cannon are more accurate than MLRS un guided projectiles.  Cannon HE are more effective than the rocket ammo with submunitions for attacking buildings & entrenchments as they have stronger projectile cases and fuzes with a delay time setting.  For a MLRS to replace cannon ammo capable of destroying enemy positions in masonry or concrete buildings and field entrenchments or bunkers must be provided in bulk.   

In Lebanon last year much of the Israli artillery was of marginal effect as it was not penetrating the enemy positions.  Nor was it hitting them with precision often enough.

I have long favored missle artillery for its range.  But not dumb rocket projectiles that only scatter bomblets.  Once rocket or missle artillery is provided with a full array of ammunition as cannon are then it may replace cannon.  And, I dont mean MLRS ammo types that are advertised in venues like this web site.  But ammo that is actually in use routinely on the battlefield.
 
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B.Smitty       7/26/2007 2:22:31 PM

Form my own experince in fire planning for both weapons the cost of PGM ammo for MLRS must be considered as the primary ammo cost, if a complete replacement of cannon with a MLRS is the question.  Ordinary dumb HE rounds from cannon are more accurate than MLRS un guided projectiles.  Cannon HE are more effective than the rocket ammo with submunitions for attacking buildings & entrenchments as they have stronger projectile cases and fuzes with a delay time setting.  For a MLRS to replace cannon ammo capable of destroying enemy positions in masonry or concrete buildings and field entrenchments or bunkers must be provided in bulk.   

There are at least two accuracy improvement programs ongoing for the MLRS. 

The first is the GMLRS GPS/INS guidance package.  This is a 10m CEP weapon with a range of up to 70km (with proven growth to 103km)  using a 180lb unitary warhead.  This munition has proven popular in Iraq for its accuracy and "right-sized" warhead - basically big enough to demolish a building without taking out the city block around it.

The second is the IMI Trajectory Control System (TCS).  This is a simpler missile guidance section and radio datalink.  It uses ground based missile tracking to send guidance updates to the missile.  Rumor has it, it has a 40-50m CEP and is significantly less expensive than GMLRS.  This system was used by the Israelis in Lebanon.

Penetration improvements are also under development.  The French BANG warhead has been fitted for British tests.  And there's an Enhanced Blast Warhead - similar to a thermobaric warhead - which also offers improved penetration.

The Israelis also offer the larger EXTRA missile for the MLRS system.  This is a 150km range GPS/INS guided weapon with a 330lb warhead.  Two EXTRAs fit in one MLRS pod.
 
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YelliChink       7/26/2007 2:37:20 PM

The second is the IMI Trajectory Control System (TCS).  This is a simpler missile guidance section and radio datalink.  It uses ground based missile tracking to send guidance updates to the missile.  Rumor has it, it has a 40-50m CEP and is significantly less expensive than GMLRS.  This system was used by the Israelis in Lebanon.


PLA's WS-1B and WS-2 rocket systems may use similar technology to reduce CEP. The former has 180km range and the later has 250km range. The CEP of these systems are about 1/10000 of its range.
 
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Carl S       7/26/2007 8:47:55 PM
Another step will be multiple size warheads in the launcher magazine.  If the desired effect calls for light precise rounds that is loaded on order.  Or if a building penetrator is needed... or a large capacity bomblet carrier....  All should be available for launch in seconds.
 
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neutralizer       7/27/2007 4:46:13 AM

Another step will be multiple size warheads in the launcher magazine.  If the desired effect calls for light precise rounds that is loaded on order.  Or if a building penetrator is needed... or a large capacity bomblet carrier....  All should be available for launch in seconds.

However, it would complicate maters, guaranteed to end up with part used pods, this becomes more important as lighter lnchrs only carry a single pod. Even more difficult in lower intensity ops where single lnchrs may be deployed widely seperated, this seems to be what UK are doing in Afg where they fired their first GMLRS earlier this week, quoted as having a '200 lb' warhead, it unclear if this is PR licence or true.
Incidentally I'd say that gun HE is more effective against some personnel type targets, bomblets are contact fuzed, gun HE typically comes fzed with at least PPD if not PPDD in W armies these days, airburst is more effective against prone or dug in men without OHP.  It's interesting that after GW1 Iraqi PW told UK questioners to the effect that bomblet wasn't too bad but airburst HE was seriously nasty (of course they weren't using HE M107!). 
 
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