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Subject: Fire for effect
FD    3/26/2007 1:53:46 PM
Don't mean to hog the board but when the observer sends the message "fire for effect", how do you know how many rounds and type of rounds to fire?
 
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neutralizer       4/13/2007 4:41:05 AM
It's the US interpretation of the STANAG and based on 'requesting' fire.  Those nations where the observer 'orders' fire start differently.  The 'shift' procedure also seems to be a US peculiarity, the STANAG allows a direction to be an arbtrary bearing and this means a shift can be ordered as a direction and distance from a known point.  These days it's also uite practical to order a 10 figure ('place' in US parlance) grid.  On the other hand if you sent most nations a dirction in degrees then then I think they'd be seriously confused and cardinal points might not be a whole lot better!
 
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Carl S       4/13/2007 11:24:44 PM
nuetralizer... your post was a bit cryptic.  (But then its late & been a hard week for me.  maybe I missed what it was refering too).

"The 'shift' procedure also seems to be a US peculiarity, the STANAG allows a direction to be an arbtrary bearing and this means a shift can be ordered as a direction and distance from a known point.  These days it's also uite practical to order a 10 figure ('place' in US parlance) grid."

The shift from a known point & grid were the primary methods I saw in many years in the US artilery.  The Polar method was taught in school & then forgotton, unless it came up during a readyness eval. test.  Or, when some types of laser range finding & designation equipment was used.  

"On the other hand if you sent most nations a dirction in degrees then then I think they'd be seriously confused and cardinal points might not be a whole lot better!"

We had a eval. test events postulating untrained observers.  Those often came in with direction in degrees.  One smart ass USN officer included minutes of arc with the degrees (funny guy).  We were susposed to be able to translate to mils without delay.   Every now & then some rifle battalion Lt would declare he would not screw around with all that mil s..t & read direction in degrees.  & so unknowingly find himself a place on the idiots list.  


 
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neutralizer       4/14/2007 4:43:43 AM
Apart from the strange habits of airmen in their flying machines and nautical perons in their tubs, I don't think anyone military on the East side of the Atlantic uses degrees.
 
I first used a LRF in 1978 when they became standard equipment for all observers (I was instructing at the time).  Some armies got them a couple of years earlier.  I actually first used polar coords a couple of years earlier when the No 14 GS Radar was issued to all observers.  The great thing was that with a LRF you could lase and adjust one tgt for a quick fireplan then lase the other tgts and apply the 'registration' correction from the adjusted one and you were ready to roll (apart from the guns preparing ammo, but that's not too bad as long as it comes fuzed).  Of course once observers got PADS a couple of years later you didn't need to adjust at all, just report your 10 figure grid.
 
However, the actual point is that the STANAG allows a direction to be OT, GT or any arbitrary bearing, the latter can be used with an Add correction, polar coords in practical terms, from the known point just fired to the next, also handy for moving targets as long as you can work out their heading, which is usually OK in well mapped country.   
 
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13FRET    neutralizer   5/18/2007 11:59:02 PM
You had a LRF in 1978?  I didn't see one til 1982.  PADS?  We never had that; only survey.  In 85 we received DMDs and G/VLLDs, those were hot shit, though bulky and clumsy, back then. 
Does anyone do an actual call for fire, anymore?
 
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neutralizer       5/19/2007 6:16:45 AM
A CFF using polar coords is still a CFF! 
 
If you mean voice then you have to look for somewhere where data comms are not being used.  Possibly also where data comms are available but the computer is not connected.  UK seems to be in this possition in Afg because they are using the backup system with BATES gone and FC-BISA not yet deployed due the the Bowman comms rollout program's ComBatt element.  To see their device Google on  LogicaCMG FCA.
 
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