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Subject: 105mm or 155mm for Medium Brigades
Maple Leaf    8/6/2003 3:31:30 PM
My question is should the SBCT have a 105mm or 155mm gun. I look at the Canadian brigades that presently deploy the French LG1 105mm towed gun with their LAV-III equipped manoeuvre forces. Now Canada does it because of the cost of buying a 155mm gun, but maybe there is an advantage to the 105mm gun. I heard the arguement that the 105mm gun is more suited for the peace support operations of the 21st Century, because the small shell causes less collateral damage while still providing accurate and deadly fire. That is a good point. I'm wonder what others think about this. Would forces engaged in peace support operations like Somalia, Bosnia and now Liberia, be more likely to use artillery if there was less likelyhood of damage to civilians and civilian infrastructure? I look at past peace support operations, and 105's have deployed more often than the 155's. The US deployed 105's to Grenada, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo (guns stayed in Macedonia and never actually went into Kosovo) and of course with the 82nd and 101st in both Gulf Wars. The Canadian, British and French have deployed 105mm guns to Bosnia since back in the mid-1990's with UNPROFOR, I-FOR and S-FOR. And the British sent two regiments to support its Royal Marine brigade and its air assault brigade during 'Iraqi Freedom' Both the towed 105mm and 155mm can be carried on a tilt-bed truck as see with the M777 at So, 105mm or 155mm?
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WinsettZ    RE:105mm or 155mm for Medium Brigades   8/6/2003 4:17:12 PM
105s are lighter-weight and can probably pack more shells per pallet (or whatever is used to transport shells) then a 155. A platform using a 105 can be built to absorb less recoil, so the platform is lighter. So a 105mm howitzer (SPG or towed) and a 155 for heavy forces? It might be a weight and logistics question...
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B.Smitty    RE:105mm or 155mm for Medium Brigades   8/6/2003 6:13:16 PM
105mms don't have the range needed to cover the large operational area envisioned for the SBCT. Only new 105mms like the South African G7 come close, and it weighs nearly as much as the M777. Plus, advanced munitions like Excalibur are being developed for the 155mm.
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:105mm or 155mm for Medium Brigades   8/6/2003 6:19:16 PM
I think the 105mm, since more ammo can be carried. Since these Brigades are suppossed to be initial reaction forces, they will be the only ones there for some point of time. The ability to have extra ammo for the same weight, outweighs any bang or range factor that the 155mm has.
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:105mm or 155mm for Medium Brigades   8/6/2003 6:21:53 PM
Darnit, I forgot this point. Everything I said would be in an ideal world. However, since the real world has other outside factors, it may be simpler for the logistical, maint and training side to have a 155mm round only. Especially, if new round development is only for the 155mm. If thats the case, its not combat efficency that will decide what they get.
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AlbanyRifles    M777   8/7/2003 8:21:22 AM
Just posted on M777. 155MM can shoot SADARM and a whole range of PGM and ICM. 105mm doesn't have the range. If I'm the only game in time for a period of time, give me 155mm. May weigh more and be bigger, but I can hit harder and more precisely. Also, don't forget each Stryker battalion also has 120mm mortars.
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Shaka of Carthage    RE:M777   8/7/2003 3:40:34 PM
I agree with you if I don't have a supply problem. The bigger bang means nothing if there is no ammo. An American medium Brigade 155s, anyone else, 105s.
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S-2    RE:M777-Shaka Retort   9/23/2005 6:25:20 PM
Put me in an airborne/light infantry environment that suddenly takes a turn for the worse, and I'll be wanting to reach out 25-30k and touch my opposition with the FULL COMPLEMENT of munitions available only to 155mm systems. Albany Rifles is right, but you missed the main reason-munitions. We've been looking for a light 155mm system from the day we fielded the M198, and now we may have it.
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doggtag    105mm or 155mm?   9/23/2005 8:11:41 PM
-"If I'm the only game in time for a period of time, give me 155mm. May weigh more and be bigger, but I can hit harder and more precisely. Also, don't forget each Stryker battalion also has 120mm mortars. " ...yet 120mm mortars don't even have the range of 105mm howitzers, even with current PGMs. Did we get stuck on stupid somewhere? The USN, and most "Allied" US-friendly nations have been shooting 5-inch shells for decades. We already know we can pack a PGM into that caliber. Streamline the shells a little better, and there's no reason we couldn't get lighter-weight-than-155-but-heavier-payload-and-greater-range-than-105, even in a piece lighter than the M777, if we use its titanium construction. We already shoot ERGMs and ANSRs past 50 miles (and if we are so keen on a 155mm naval system, why then was ATK even awarded the contract for BTERM, the extended range ANSR?) Seems sensible enough to me that 127mm solves a lot of problems. But then those logistics junkies say no: costs too much to change everything over to a new caliber (regardless of any potential benefits). Guess we'll be using 105mm and 155mm for the next millennium, too.
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seantheaussie    RE:105mm or 155mm?   9/23/2005 11:31:39 PM
1. Don't forget MLRS which cancels out all 155mm range/guided advantages. 2. Any competent enemy will grab/hug? the belt of US troops to avoid US's massive fire support advantage & 105mm can be aimed closer to friendlies.
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neutralizer    RE:105mm or 155mm?   9/24/2005 7:34:25 AM
Meanwhile Aust is officially seeking reduced effect 155mm as well as new HE. Not that this is a new idea. When UK deployed AS90 to Bosnia they took both L15 HE and L19 trg shells with very reduced effect, and had different rules of engagement for each.
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