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Subject: Soviet M46 130 mm artillery can out gun American 155 howitzers from 1960s -1980s???
Rasputin    9/19/2006 6:34:27 AM
Please assist me in clarifying this myth that I had stumbled upon about the Soviet M46 130mm gun. According to some reports during the vietnam war the American 155 howitzer was outgunned by the soviet M46 gun? Could the M 46 as the reports claim be able to fire at US artillery with impunity from counter battery fire ???? Quoted from an article in the Marine Corps gazette : "GEN Giap wore his poker face the day he studied the buildup of Marine forces along the DMZ. A master of Soviet tactics, he decided to call and raise. He positioned his heavy artillery pieces just beyond the range of the most common guns in the Marine Corps’ fire bases, the 105mm and 155mm artillery. He knew publicly stated U.S. policy prevented American forces from entering North Vietnam. The Marines would not penetrate north of the Ben Hai River. Holding these political and military restrictions like a trump card, the general dug in his Soviet 152mm guns and his 130mm field pieces precisely where U.S. ground observation was limited. He employed Soviet missiles and antiaircraft weapons systems to hinder aerial observation. He felt confident that his most powerful guns were now capable of suppressing Marine artillery fire with near impunity. When U.S. air reconnaissance spotted the NVA shifting some 130 artillery pieces in the area north of the Ben Hai River, the Marines rushed to reinforce their artillery deployment to 180 tubes. Nevertheless, Giap’s strategy clobbered the Marine artillery bases with little effective return fire. Then, while holding the Marine fire bases fixated on counterbattery missions, particularly at Camp Carroll, the general released his infantry to the attack. " And a further excerpt from an article about Gerald Bull, even the US navy needed help : " If you had a problem w/ your artillery, he was the man to call. During the Second Indo-China War he again used the sabot, this time to increase the range of the U.S. Navy's 5 in. guns. They had been getting out distanced by the new Soviet 130mm artillery pieces being deployed by the N. Vietnamese." Could anyone confirm those facts, I do recall seeing an advertisement in the 80s from Fabrique National, that they produce 130 mm shells for the M46 that go up to 39 Km!!!, but the american howiters range at that time was only about 27 km. If so, what is so special about the M46 gun that without base bleed or rocket assisted shells it could have such phenomenal range?? I know it has a flatter tragectory, and am not sure if its considered a field gun or a howitzer, as the M46 is said to be able to provide direct fire? But strangely there has been no more development for this gun????? and now most users are using the new generation 155s or 152s.
 
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Herald1234       9/19/2006 10:31:53 PM

I vaguely recall hearing of the "Red Devils" but cant recall their purpose.  Burn accelerators? Flash suppresors?

My first two years in the artillery overlapped the last of the M110 203mm howitzers in the USMC.  Those were the long tubed ones with extended range.  We had exactly two of the them in the 12th Marines on Okinawa.  The award of the day to anyone who can guess correctly why there were just two such in all of III MEF.

As I wrote earlier the NVA long range artillery should have been quickly taken care of by the air wing.  Unfortunatly target planning & selection was not under the final control of I Corps & it took a while before the appropriate sorties were properly allocated.   Another of those little doctrinal things that tripped us up in that war. 
Were they leftovers from Vietnam?
 
Herald

 
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Carl S       9/20/2006 1:39:34 AM
No. The chassis might have been, But I certain the barrels were installed in the 1970s.  Probably the entire vehical rebuilt at that time.   Origianly there was at least one battery of six, (perhaps an entire battalion) on Okinawa post Viet Nam.  But in the late 1970s the bulk of the M110 were moved to the US & just these two left behind.

Anyone else want to take a guess why?
 
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Herald1234    Take another guess?   9/20/2006 2:02:48 AM
I can't let it go. Were they nuclear capable?
 
Herald
 
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neutralizer       9/20/2006 5:46:46 AM
I have doubts about a 79kg shell for a gun of only 130mm, it would have needed a massive propelling charge and I doubt that the chamber was big enough.  To believe this I'd need to see the FT, secondary sources don't count, errors get made.
 
130mm was probably the last 'true' gun to enter service anywhere.  Of the top of my head I can't think if a gun entering field arty service in any western army after 1918.
 
People on the receiving end of M46 (guys who's business was artillery intelligence as it happens) tell me its HE had very poor fragmentation and really wasn't something to get too worried about.  This was in Oman.
 
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Rasputin       9/20/2006 11:54:37 AM

I have doubts about a 79kg shell for a gun of only 130mm, it would have needed a massive propelling charge and I doubt that the chamber was big enough.  To believe this I'd need to see the FT, secondary sources don't count, errors get made.

 

130mm was probably the last 'true' gun to enter service anywhere.  Of the top of my head I can't think if a gun entering field arty service in any western army after 1918.

 

People on the receiving end of M46 (guys who's business was artillery intelligence as it happens) tell me its HE had very poor fragmentation and really wasn't something to get too worried about.  This was in Oman.

Sorry i meant in pounds, below was what I gleaned from the one of the 3 soviet naval guns from the past. I chose the Russian
130 mm/50 (5.1") B13 Pattern 1936

Can't entirely confirm if this is the exact naval gun that the M46 was based upon, with a variety of shells, the gun can lob them to 27000 yards or 25000 meters +. Which I thought seemed closest to the range stated on the M46.

Any info as to how accurate this gun was when compared to the US howiters of that time period?






 
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S-2    Neutralizer Reply   9/20/2006 1:14:20 PM
"130mm was probably the last 'true' gun to enter service anywhere.  Of the top of my head I can't think if a gun entering field arty service in any western army after 1918."
 
Um, wasn't the M-107 175mm weapon we've been discussing officially considered a "gun"?
 
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S-2    Carl S. Reply   9/20/2006 1:36:30 PM
"Anyone else want to take a guess why?"
 
Carl, I'm guessing nuclear, or to retain a first class unparalleled accurate weapon with which to conduct DESTRUCTION missions using the ol' gunners quadrant.
 
M110A2/E2.  No more accurate artillery system in the world at the time, and is lovingly missed by any true cannoneer
 
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Carl S       9/20/2006 2:05:25 PM
Bingo.  The pair were kept around to shoot nukes.  Better range than the 155mm nuke round.  Of course the conventional point destruction capability is nice too. & even a pair made a adaquate countery battery weapon.  But as far as I know they were the only nuke trained arty unit on Okinawa.  I never saw any training items, or other tools for a 155 nuclear mission while they werre there.

Anyway they vanished as fast as the M198 came on board.
 
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Carl S       9/20/2006 6:46:13 PM
For comparison here a a few ranges for other cannon drawn from various sources.

Soviet

S23   180mm gun.  Range 30km HE, 43km RAP.  Rate of Fire 1 RPM.  HE proj weight 83kg.


German 

17cm K 18.  173mm gun.   Range 29km.   Proj weight 68kg. 

10cm K 18   105mm gun.   Range 19km.   Proj weight 15kg.

21cm K 12   211mm gun.   Range 115km  Proj weight 107kg.

80cm  Gustav Gerat  800mm  Range 47km.  HE Proj weight 4800kg.  Range 38km.  Concrete Penetrating Proj weight 7100kg.  Used at Sevastopol.
 
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neutralizer       9/21/2006 4:50:38 AM
Technically speaking a 'gun' with multiple charges and capable of firing in HA is most definitely not a 'gun' but clearly a howitzer.  WW1 had highlighted the benefits of multi-charge 'guns', which by the conventional definitions were not 'guns'.
 
I thought it was probably 79 lbs, (or a salvo wt from a 2 gun turret).
 
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