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Subject: Artillery for Light Troops
Thomas    6/11/2003 5:24:12 AM
On the infantry board, there is a discussion of the future of light infantry. On the armour board there is a discussion of the future (if any) of the Light tank. To complement these discussion in the spirit of combined arms: What sort of artillery should go with Light troops. It should be airportable. It should be "resupplyable". It should be able to operate under the conditions of the Light Infantry. Any thoughts?
 
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ArtilleryMan    RE:Artillery for Light Troops - .....Rainmaker 55   10/29/2004 12:02:18 PM
"The M777A1 will replace the M198's. However, it is not considered "light" artillery. It can be airlifted by a CH-47 Chinhook, a great advantage over the M198. " Uhhh the M198 can also be transported by the CH-47 Chinook. This is NOT an advantage over the M198.
 
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ArtilleryMan    RE:Artillery for Light Troops - M777   10/29/2004 12:11:47 PM
"The 5rds per minute can be maintained for 4 minutes, sustained rate of fire requirement is for 2 rds per minutte." Wrong, it is 4 rounds a minute not 5.
 
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ArtilleryMan    RE:Artillery for Light Troops - M777   10/29/2004 12:17:43 PM
Weight is critical with the osprey, I believe it has a max external lift of 10,000 lbs. Easy enough to check on internet.
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Artillery for Light Troops - M777   11/1/2004 10:21:32 AM
What is wrong? I am telling you that of all the testing I have witnessed the crews can maintain 5 rounds a minute for 4 minutes. This exceeds the burst rate of fire requirement which IS 4 rounds a minute. Sustained rate of fire requirement is 2 rounds a minute. Regarding the 47 picking up a 198, yes it will, but as with the 60 picking up a M777, it is not going to be able to carry it very far. I would consider the ability to carry out a 50-60km artillery raid under 47 and advantage over the 198.
 
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ArtilleryMan    RE:Artillery for Light Troops - M777   11/6/2004 10:03:11 AM
Who cares what you witnessed? The fact of the matter remains that the max rate-of-fire for the M777 howitzer is 4 rds per minute for 2 minutes. Hell if the howitzer had a mission where they didn't need to change there azimuth and elevation it could probably shoot 6 rounds a minute... its irrelevant. When providing statistics you have to use a common standard for measurement... otherwise your just spreading BS propganda. The howitzer being lighter has an advantage as far as range with all air lifts (common sense). The M198 has always been air liftable by the CH47, contrary to what was posted here. The Army's reason for purchase has nothing to do with this particular difference. (The army did not even request an improvement as far as air liftable range in their requirements.)
 
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neutralizer    RE:Artillery for Light Troops   11/7/2004 7:00:58 AM
RoF for any gun depends on technical limits, basically overheating, and what crew can achieve. Tech limit based on max charge, therefore below that guns can be safely operated at higher RoF if the crew can cope. Duration of max rate also a factor, but for simplicity most if not all armies use a 'one rate fits all' type rule (eg 6 rpm for 3 mins then 2 rpm for 60 mins) and ignore use of lower charges. Light recoil system in 777 could well reduce max RoF below the well established 6 rpm for towed 155mm. In mid '70s towed 155mm were producing 3 rds 15 sec burst. Lack of power rammer and need to swab probably makes 6 rpm unobtainable for even a well practised crew. 777E1 with auto laying has potential to give faster rate than basic 777 with manual laying (and its not very slick 2 pers procedure), but without power rammer probably very slight. If other armies adopt 777 its going to be very interesting to see whether they trade a bit of gun weight for power rammer and higher RoF, enabling smaller crew hence reduced total airlift and whole life cost.
 
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ArtilleryMan    RE:Artillery for Light Troops   11/8/2004 7:18:20 PM
Wow neutralizer, you really have no clue. You know just enough to be dangerous.
 
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neutralizer    RE:Artillery for Light Troops   11/9/2004 2:56:30 AM
On the other hand I may have forgotten more than 'ArtilleryMan' ever knew or even had several times the amount of hands on experience:-)
 
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ArtyEngineer    RE:Artillery for Light Troops - ArtilleryMan   11/9/2004 1:04:38 PM
ArtilleryMan, I have no intention of getting in to some sort of "P#@*ing Contest" with you, but do NOT accuse me of spreading "BS Propoganda" !!! True, I have a lot of pride in the system I work on and truely believe that the M777A1 system will do for the towed artillery community what the Paladin system did for the SP community. Every Battery Gunny in the Marine Corp who has worked on the system shares this belief along with the crews. I will continue to provide first hand information to what I believed was an interested community on this forum. You say things like: "Hell if the howitzer had a mission where they didn't need to change there azimuth and elevation it could probably shoot 6 rounds a minute..." Well news flash, the vast majority of fire missions are fired on a fixed Deflection and QE, unless the FO calls for an adjustment of fire or you are trying to do something fancy like a rolling barrage or some sort of Multiple Simultaneous Impact mission, but these are not the norm,there is no if about it. Statements like this make me wonder what standpoint of knowledge you are coming from. To say someone like Neutraliser "knows just enough to be dangerous" is deliberately insulting, have you read any of his posts? The guy clearly has a very deep and fundamental understanding of all aspect of artillery usage. If you want to have a discussion about the M777 I am more than happy to answer any questions you may have, just try to approach the matter in a civilised tone.
 
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Nichevo    RE:Finally - ??????   11/10/2004 4:44:25 AM
Sure, but this was about light infantry equipment. Traveling light and all that, humping it up mountains for hajis. If you can spare a man or a mule dying because they were trying to carry something too heavy up a too-slippery slope, but make that power a one-man carry and a one-man use, make it something you could carry while running after someone, that seemed to me to have an unbeatable appeal. Got guys in the bush? Drop 'em another crate of shells and let 'em break them out per man. You could throw one to your mate in the next foxhole (carefully!;> if properly packaged!) or hide one under a bush. But it is in and of itself a 60mm, an 81mm, a 120mm mortar. It is just a disposable mortar, like Bic lighters. (It could be a disposable refillable but that's another story.) Added to the network, it has just as much sensor-fused killing potential as an F-117. It provides the man in the field with all the options. Or the remote operator--equip it with $20 servos and gyros and it can train and engage any target within range (even with dumb heads; and you could network a whole field of them together), if you plug a GPS receiver and satcom into the base of one, it can operate the entire local artillery network (LAN) from Washington or outer space, using its own WLAN or daisy-chained wired network. See looney ASCII try below. * satellite/aerosat/cell tower / / / / \ Shared LAN / \ Master Fire Few/Single Shells \ Control ///~~~~///~~~/~~~~~~/ C <-radio/ \ | $ | satcom \ v $ ---^--- VSAT-> @-###~~~~~~~~~//////////////// $ ^ ///Big Shell////// ////////~~~~~~~$ | ///////Field/////// /////// $ WiFi ////////////////// //////// ///////////// //////////////// ///Field of// /////Shells// ///////////~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~//// $ $ $~~~~~~~~~~~%% Remote sensors RS%~~~~~~~~~~~$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ /~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~%_tripwire lone pickets Headquarters (M2A3, Pentagon) Upon reflection, and whether dumbed down or no, it could be just as useful to insurgents as to counterinsurgents. Certainly it would be better at roadside attacks than are IEDs--the thing could be set up half a mile away and hit the vehicle on the road when it comes up on wireless video from a hut on the other side of the road. I really think it would become a Swiss Army knife. Put a coil of rope on a booster and it's a rope launcher. Tear gas for riot control. Strap a dozen together and use it as a base to launch yourself up to the roof of a MOUT objective. Anything your heart desires. And cheap due to low stresses and COTS chips (PDA class, and you can get a wireless/cellular Treo for a hundred dollars or less, and it'll get cheaper. Basic fire control on the shell, aside from guidance, would be the equivalent of a $2 digital watch, maybe a $10 calculator watch. Trivial hardware and mechanisms. Recycle old rockets and shells if desired). It needn't be radiation-hardened. Waterproofed, yes, like a Shock-G, but Casio or L. L. Bean can do that. It needn't be tarted up. All kinds of options are possible at low costs with plenty of logrolling for all Congress. Just build a million of these puppies at say $100 a crack on average (some $10 dumb shells, some $10000 geniuses) and see how long it takes you to use 'em up.
 
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