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Subject: United Earth Militaries of 2009 versus 40K militaries/hordes of the apocalypse
Parmenion    2/21/2009 11:50:40 AM
I used to play 40k, don't now but still remember most of it and left only about a year and a half ago. Anyway, if nations of today unified to face a common threat, and that threat turned out to be from any one of the 40k factions, then how might we cope in the following scenarios: 1) Defending Earth versus a small to medium sized (in 40k terms) attack by any facttion, the attackers are isolated from their main base by whatever mechanism you want, Warp crap or whatever. So beyond what the enemy take with them which is mainly transports and maybe a few escort class ships, that's it. 2)Fighting over an imaginary unihabited island, except for island read planet. Assume we can send our guys their via some way which dosen't bring fleet engagements into this, as we don't have 5km long crusisers. 3) Our capacity to steal technology and develop a fleet and combined arms to take the fight to them across the 40k Galaxy. Assume our Earth is effectively hidden and shielded from the enemy to start by some astrophysical thing which dosen't hurt us. But this is not insurmountable if the enemy get lots of specific intel. If you're a military genius but don't know anything about 40k google and wikipedia are your friends. My view is that if standard issue military run the show, we get it handed to us by everyone. If we exploit every possible human resource and have geniuses running things, we probably still get it handed to us by 'nids, Necrons and Marines of both types. Sure some of you will disagree so it'll be great to hear replies.
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Parmenion    RE: 2009 versus 40k   2/21/2009 12:36:30 PM
BTW, speculation on political and social effects of jamming all the nations of the earth together, whether this would happen when war started, and the orginizational and doctrinal aspects of a military designed to fight this war is encouraged.
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andyf       2/22/2009 3:11:52 PM
our weapons have much greater effective ranges than the 40k equivalents
whats the max range of a bolter ? 24" or so.. assuming 2m per inch or range that makes the bolt gun capable of reaching out to just under 50m range
oh dear
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ArtyEngineer    Parmenion   2/22/2009 4:51:06 PM
As a massive 40k fan Im going to take this opportunity to do a comparison of Imperial Guard and Navy Tech versus the best of what we have to offer ;)
At a basic infantry man level there is probably not alot in it, however the Lasgun equiped Guard Troopers might have an edge, from a basic personal gear point of view.  The Guard forces may however be considered more "Experience and Battlehardened " having faced some of the worst the 40K universe has to offer and still be alive and breathing has to count for something!!!!" width="400" border="0" />
  V's" width="400" border="0" />
Another advantage however may be the "Carapace Armor" worn by these "Stormtroopers"  How well any of our weapons perform against the Armor Technology of the imperial forces is a huge unknown.
From an armored vehicle point of view it would appear that earth forces have the advantage, the Lema Russ, Chimera, Basilisk are amost certainly surpassed by vehicles like the Abrams, Challanger2, Bradly, CV90 and PzH2000.  See Pics Below:" width="400" border="0" />
Leman Russ MBT Versus" width="400" border="0" />
M1A2 SEP and" width="400" border="0" />
Challanger 2," width="400" border="0" />
Chimera IFV Versus" width="400" border="0" />
Bradley and" width="400" border="0" />
CV 90," width="400" border="0" />
Basilisk Versus" width="400" border="0" />
All the above Earth vehicles seem to have the capability edge on their Imperial Guard counterparts, however as stated before the Armor technology on the Imperial vehicles may prove harder to defeat than looks would lead us to believe!!!!
Lucky for the imperial forces however that these are not all they can bring to the fight!!!!  If they start bringing down the "Super Heavies" and even "Titans" then there are going to be some serious "WTF" moments for the first Earth Forces to engage.  Just imagine the shock the first time some of these are encountered on the battlefield!!!!!" width="400" border="0" />
Stormblade," width="400" border="0" />
Shadowsword," width="400" border="0" />
and Baneblade!!!!" width="400" border="0" />
Warhound Titan" width="400" border="0" />
and Reaver Titan!!!!
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andyf       2/22/2009 7:45:11 PM
on the weapons vs armour front, they do have weapons similar to ours- slug guns they call em,, i think they were s3 weapons
< man this is taking some remembering>
a little less powerful than a bolter s4  ,, the carapace armour would be useful for them- mostly as defence against our fragmentation weaponry, although 5.56nato might have to be ditched in favour of 7.62
the main advantage of any orbit based enemy is getting to pick the fight.
most of their units we could smash all day, if they actually bothered to engage us rather than outmanuvering us
 i had a similar discussion with a guy vis a vis mechwarrior- if you look at the ranges they fight at- the super armour etc doesn't really help- an M1 abrams could simply hammer the cockpit with round after round of sabot before the mech ever got into range
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Parmenion       2/22/2009 8:45:40 PM

our weapons have much greater effective ranges than the 40k equivalents

whats the max range of a bolter ? 24" or so.. assuming 2m per inch or range that makes the bolt gun capable of reaching out to just under 50m range

oh dear


In the Tabletop game yes but this is not to any kind of scale. Reading the background and novels, Imperial weaponry ranges from being roughly equivalent to outclassing our stuff in range. The bolter represents about the best the imperium have and outclasses any modern gun, in can in fact be used as a sniper rifle fairly easily whern needed, or to shred light armoured veichles when fired in volleys. The Imperial often do use modern manuovre warfare, along with all other types of tactics, it varies immensely from world to world.
Tau weaponry especially the Pulse Rifle is like the best gun DARPA could put together today compared to the Prussian needle gun from the 1871 war.
For 1) My feelingis that it depends on what we have to deal with initally- if it's a few transports and two or three Imperial regiments (an Imperial regiment is 100, 000 guys if memory serves) then there's massive devastation but we survive, gain their tech and become stronger. If it's in the millions plus with reinforcements, then we're likely screwed unless the Guard commander is one of the ones who makes Custer or Field Marshall Haig look like a strategic genius.
 An Ork Waagh! or Tyranid cruiser is the worst possible scenario because we get bloodied without any usable technological gains in return. Chaos could conceivably be as bad, plus corruption. Liberals think the war against terror was bad, just wait for the war on heresy.
Tau again is just a numbers game, be interesting to see western armies pull out their best "maneouvre warfare", against the space cows with their flying magic tanks and magic guns. And space chickens that kick ass and eat corpses. If we win weprobably gain the most useful and easy to understand technology- alot of the decent Imperial stuff is actually more sophisticated than it looks and may have a few heads scratching.
Even with only a few hundered, Space Marines could mess us up. Probably the most formiddable of any of the races at equivalent strengths. I mean they conquer worlds like Earth for a living! With a modern day Hannibal as commander and millions of soldiers ready to go, we might outlast a small marine force, assuming they didn't have exterminatus (planet killer tech all the bigs ships carry as standard) with them. But I doubt we would "win" a coventional battle. If it's Chapter, then just pray they're nice marines, I.E. they'll only remove 10% of our population for resisting.
Eldar do skipy dance of death, then realise how outnumbered they are and retreat. Alternately they decide some obscure rock formation is sacred and descend in large numbers. Pwnage of our tender human asses occurs. Also there is no way we understand their decent technology. Fine, we get some laser technology and super-light armour. But are we going to understand their Warp or plasma stuff? Not unless we've already fought the Tau.
Necrons attack, and either take the planet or decide not to for now. We really wouldn't have much choice if they wanted to come in force, and they have probably the best intel in the galaxy so they can find us.
Best possible case scenario we end a relatively short war united, nice side effect of solving problems such as poverty and disease so that all nations can provide manufacturing and troops, and with tech like a mixture of marines and Tau.
Worst case scenario is the vast majority of them.
I leave 2) and 3) to you guys and welcome any debate or criticisms.
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