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Subject: Alternate history of WW-II game?
Shooter2K    10/14/2007 5:17:34 PM
If you were the leader of one of 16 National-socio-political states contesting a 2nd world war that was postponed from 3May 1943 to 3 May 1945 with using the two years to build and prepair those forces for the comming final battle, What percentage of forces would you choose? IE Army, Navy, Air Force, Merchant Marine, Industrial Production and infrastructure. A perfectly ballenced force would have 20% of each, but that is not required. It is your choise to have more or less of any type of unit so what would you do?
 
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Shooter2K    Second Questio on Alternate Histor of WW-II   10/14/2007 5:55:16 PM
If you were one of the major players, IE Nazi Germany, Great Britan, the USA or Japan, would you shair the best parts of your technology with your allies in the hope that they would be easier to defeat than your main enimies?
 
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Jeff_F_F       10/15/2007 9:52:57 AM
Sharing tech between Japan and Germany is one of my favorite alternative history scenarios. All it takes is Hitler postponing Barbarossa and throwing everything into the mediterranean theater. Wouldn't really take much. Iraq was his to lose in the real world. a coup was put down in April 1941 by the British with something like a single brigade, simply redeploying what was left of the fallschirmjagers would probably have tipped the balance. Syria and Lebanon were Vichi French. He could have used them as a base to support the Iraqi coup and then invade Jordan and open a second front against Egypt. Once that was done communication between Germany and Japan would be a lot easier and communication between Britain and Austrailia + India and the other colonies in the east. But I digress.
 
Japan and Germany would have benefitted greatly from this exchange. Both had advanced technologies that the other lacked. Japan wold have benefitted especially from tank and antitank gun technology. They were able to start producing German 88mm guns late in the war when the two did in fact start trading. There was also trade in raw materials. Germany faced critical shortages in many, with Tungsten being an especially notable one, both for producing machine tools and for certain classes of advanced weapons. Germany simply was not able to produce HVAP/APCR ammunition at all for most of the war, which would have dramatically improved the effectiveness of their already outstanding AT guns. Tungsten is also critical for producing high temperature alloys for jet engines and the lack of it hamstrung German jet production efforts.
 
This pause would have several strategic implications that are very beneficial, especially to the Axis powers. Consider that Kursk has not yet happened, however Kursk was only intended to be a limited offensive aimed at shortening the German line. That line was intended to then be heavily entrenched in depth and the Russians "bled dry" against it. Considering the Russian fondness for human wave attacks (in some cases alternatives to this tactic were only attempted once burned out vehicles physically blocked a frontal assault on a position) this might have actually worked. Or maybe the massive Russian industrial production will overwhelm any defensive barrier. It will be interesting to see.
 
The pause would allow German industry to recover from the constant bombing, and to set up better air-raid defenses. The big question in my mind is, does Germany switch to a total war economy? Historically they didn't make the decision until late 1943 if I remember correctly, and it was implemented in 1944. Until then basically the Nazi party was more concerned with keeping women in the kitchen than it was with winning the war. All of the allies had switched to total war production years before, because they weren't saddled with Nazi fanatics in power. But I digress again. Switching to total war production essentially gives Germany a free boost in productivity, because until then Germany had a lot of under-utilized industrial capacity.
 
The other interesting impact is that production isn't such an immediate concern, Russia would have time to devote a bit more time to development. I would definitely expect to see T-54s on the front lines by the time hostilities resume, possibly even as their MBT, with JS3s as a heavy assault tank, nasty. Of course Comets and Chieftains would be the rule for the Brits and Pershings for the Americans. Should be interesting.
 
Also I'd assume the Germans would do the same, so the so called E-series would probably be their front line vehicles. A big question is, at this point Germany was starting to re-think their production techniques. Historically, Germany didn't begin to adopt true mass production until the very Until this point every tank, sub, etc was essentially a custom job. Think of the way high end German automobiles are produced vs the way US cars are produced. High quality low production vs. medium quality high production. (Soviet weapons would be low quality, high production). Toward the end of the war the Germans were beginning to rethink this. The newest classes of peroxide powered submarines were truely mass-produced but entered the war very late. The so called "E series" of armored vehicles would have been but the Germans never had a chance to sit down and really redesign not only their weapons but their production methods from the ground up once the war started. If this could be done a massive increase in production could have resulted with a lot less effort than actually building enough factories to produce the weapons using the old method.
 
For the Japanese the implications are possibly even more massive. During the time period that the pause is ta
 
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Jeff_F_F       10/15/2007 10:08:19 AM
I kinda glossed over some of the tech exchange issue. Germany and Japan would have benefitted massively especially in the areas of aircraft design and submarines. Japanese sub hull designs were very advanced, and the Long Lance torpedo was by far the best torpedo used by any navy at the time. Germany had advanced propulsion systems using peroxide as an oxidizer allowing continuous underwater operation. The Japanese would naturally have benefitted greatly from jet technology. This was available in Germany by 1943 but had teething problems in part because of the lack of tugsten.
 
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Jeff_F_F    Cruise missiles   10/15/2007 11:51:41 AM
It also occurs to me that if the Japanese had Henschel Hs 293 guided missiles, they would be far superior to Kamakaze raids for attacking US warships.
 
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Shooter2K    Good thoughts and clear rational.   10/15/2007 1:39:17 PM
Your post is clear and creative. But I should have posted more details to give you a better idea of how things are.
 The 16 players each controle one faction/state. Eight axis powers comprised of Nazi Germany, Impirial Japan, Italy, Vichi France and the newly created Greator Austro-Hungarian Empire, made up of the Russian haters who historicaly joined the Nazis and all of the peoples you mentioned and the leader name sakes. Sort of Nazi lite? The Holy Islamic Ottoman Empire, all of the Islamic people and their territories. The Greator Hispanic Empire, including all Spanish speaking peoples from the former colinies. And finnaly, the Greator Sub-Saharan African Congress. The newly formed Nazi alies Get to chose which of the offered German equipment they will use. The German player may choos not to shair? Although, I do not know why he would not. This sort o0f leaves the Japanise out by them selves, but the Axis poweres need them to have a real chance to win. You can imagine all of the pent up hatred and rivalry directed against the Allies who are; Great Britan and the UK, IANZAC or India, Austrailia, New Zealand, and Canada as the former colonials decide to seceed from the empire and go thier own way, Sort of like UK lite. Russia. The Cielestial Kingdom of Middle Earth, IE China. The United States of America-"lite" DC North to Main and west to Ohio, 14 States. The Confederate States of America, as the origional 11 Confederate states plus Oklahoma. The Hartland of America in the midwest to Utah. The Peoples Republic of California with 10 western states and the territories of Alaska, Hawii and the pacific islands. I was forced to break up the USA because so many people wanted to be them and they were just too powerfull if not? Each nation-State is bounded by three of the enimies.
 
The second part of the idea is that the truce/ciese fire is enforced by The Organicans from outer space, who detest the killing of civilians and require two years to build a new planet to continue the war on! It is 180 degrees ahead or behind of Earth in the same orbit. It has ten continents on it. Eight lozzenge shaped around the equater each 4800X1200Km, long and wide with 200Km between the ends sort of like the straights of Dover between France and England. The other two continents are at the poles and the rest of the planet is water. Each contestant starts from an artificial island 30 degrees north or south of the equater indexed between the equitorial continents, indexed 45 degrees of longitude appart, 30 degrees north and 30 degrees south of the equater.. You must transport your forces to the continents and conquer them to beat the enimies on all three sides of you. The continents have the resources that your factories will use to built new equipment and supplies. Which will be transported back and forth in your merchant marine ships.
 
The real choises are how much of which types of units do you take to start and do you try to go fore broke from the start or try to hold on while your industry builds up your forces untill they are larger than your foes? The rules about technological inovation are the same for all and the progress that can be made durring the two years is anything they actualy did and anything you want to spend your Science Research & Developement points on. Note that you get ten die rolls for each SR&D % that you take. One or two is normal and four is the limmet. It takes one SR&D unit 30 months to build the first atom bomb as tested in America. Any one can duplicate that result within 6 months of the resumption of the war, assuming "Average" die rolls! Other technologies take longer or less, depending on what they are and how difficult it is in relation to the bomb project.
 
A typical standard distribution of forces would be; Navy = 20%, Army = 20%, Air Force = 20%, Merchant Marine = 20%, Industrial Production = two sets of five % each and 2% each of Pioneers to gather resourses, SR&D, C3I&D, Power and Supplies. All of these to start the game on your island. You may chose which of these units to take ir-regardless of their cost or matirials requirements! IE, the Germans may have all of the rair strategic metals required to fiels 100% of all of these units. They typicaly use some of their SR&D points to make a second generation jet engine, that lasts longer than 25 hours because it usees all of those hi-temp allois they lacked in real life. Etc! You chose how and what you want to do. Interesting and logical back stories will allow other items as the rest of the players choose.
 
Now what would you do?
 
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Shooter2K    Good thoughts and clear rational.   10/15/2007 1:44:52 PM
"It also occurs to me that if the Japanese had Henschel Hs 293 guided missiles, they would be far superior to Kamakaze raids for attacking US warships."
 
Think about the Baka with improvements instead! It goes farther than the Henschel and is many times more leathal. The Germans give them advanced Liquire Fuel technology, which doubles or tripples the range and larger solid fuel boosters to get it off of a standard aircraft catapult from a ship? The pilot could have an ejection seat, parachute and inflatable boat to be recovered by submarine later? The endless possabilities bogle the mind?
 
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Jeff_F_F       10/17/2007 6:42:30 PM
When I first heard your premise it seemed really odd, now it makes more sense. Sounds like a lot of fun. I'd say take the coolest stuff from everyone. Even the Italians had some interesting tech. I'm thinking their 90mm ATG on a tracked carriage for example. Most axis naval stuff would be Japanese, but with the option to use German peroxide power plants. The allies shared a lot so it isn't unballancing to allow the Axis to share.
 
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Shooter2K    You're absolutely right!   10/18/2007 4:52:44 PM
It does not un-balence the game at all! If you could be one of the sides wich would you take? I all ready have 3-4 who would play the three extra Americans and-or one of the Axis Powers set to go. But they are all veterans and have agreed to take any open place if required. You can win with any one, IF you are good and make the right choises!
 
The "Take all the best stuff" has limmets though. You can only take what you want IF it is given to you by your allies, or you can steel it by a successfull espionage roll! Modifiers are applied to rolls Vs Friends as opposed to Vs enimies, but depending on how well it is guarded, there is all ways a chance? Roll playing comes in, if you can figure a "Angle" to increase the odds. My favorite is the guy who took The Greator Sub-Saharan African Congress about three years ago. He claimed that since the janitors in the Boeing and other deffence plants were black, he should get a die roll modifier because "Every one knows that (Darkies, his own words!) are to stoopid to take serriously, that they should be able to Minox anything they wanted in America!" Then he combined those technologies with the best from the 3rd Riech and nearly won! That game was a hoot!!!
 
So how about it, would you like to play?
 
But most folks go for thr battles. Units are either divion strength or single ships/task forces or squadrons of planes
 
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Jeff_F_F       10/19/2007 8:04:25 AM
I'm in. :) I'm writing you from work, with my hotmail email address.
 
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andyf       10/19/2007 2:57:17 PM
ever read the axis of time series by john birmingham?
 
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