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Subject: F-22 Caught Short
SYSOP    2/20/2013 5:30:16 AM
 
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WarNerd       2/20/2013 10:34:22 PM
1. Screw up the canopy.
 
2. Screw up the software and data-link.
 
3. Screw up the wingbox.
 
There are other issues, but the F-22 is a program disaster. The YF23 was the BETTER plane.
 
a.  More growth paths.
b. Better airframe.
c. Greater volume carriage.
 
The problem with the YF-23 at the time was a risky engine tech selected, it looked more like a bomber (not cool to the eye), and it was slightly less maneuverable.
 
BUT...
 
That plane could carry air-to-ground weapons, (larger weapon bays)
That plane had internal volume for future avionics
And AFAIK it was WELL-BUILT.
 
Yank and bank overtook air-to air-to-mud common sense.
 
 Idiots.
While I too was disappointed when the F-22 was chosen over the F-23, which was a beautiful plane, honesty requires me to note that those problems you list came up later in development after the choice was made. If it had been the F-23 that had continued development equivalent, or worse, issues would have appeared in that program as well. It is an inescapable result of the design process.
 
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WarNerd       2/20/2013 10:51:23 PM
Re F35 JHMCS - VSI's design has major problems, seamlessly integrating the distributed sensors without lag - might well be that an interim is to use a less-capable backup design by BAE. 
The JHMCS is the system currently used in the F-15, F-16, and F/A-18. The system for the F-35 was to be the HMDS from VSI, and is/was having major problems. The potential replacement is, as you noted, from BAE. Not sure what the capabilities will be, but if they aren’t close to the HMDS they will probably need to do some major cockpit redesign.
 
And it is a sure bet that they are looking at putting whatever is used in the F-35 ino the F-22 as well.
 
This is one of those rapidly developing fields of technology where if you can get it, its already obsolete.
 
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Belisarius1234    Quite true...    2/20/2013 10:55:40 PM
But this is LOCKMART after Kelly Johnson is gone and the accountants took over, and Northrop GRUMMAN, with old Jack Northrop, himself, still kicking tires when that team went to work on it.
 
Now which design shop would I TRUST to get it right?
 
B.


1. Screw up the canopy.

 

2. Screw up the software and data-link.

 

3. Screw up the wingbox.

 

There are other issues, but the F-22 is a program disaster. The YF23 was the BETTER plane.

 

a.  More growth paths.

b. Better airframe.

c. Greater volume carriage.

 

The problem with the YF-23 at the time was a risky engine tech selected, it looked more like a bomber (not cool to the eye), and it was slightly less maneuverable.

 

BUT...

 

That plane could carry air-to-ground weapons, (larger weapon bays)

That plane had internal volume for future avionics

And AFAIK it was WELL-BUILT.

 

Yank and bank overtook air-to air-to-mud common sense.

 

 Idiots.


While I too was disappointed when the F-22 was chosen over the F-23, which was a beautiful plane, honesty requires me to note that those problems you list came up later in development after the choice was made. If it had been the F-23 that had continued development equivalent, or worse, issues would have appeared in that program as well. It is an inescapable result of the design process.

 
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Belisarius1234    My copy is long gone.   2/20/2013 11:56:22 PM
 
Check the appendix. The rough rule of thumb is that the plane can dodge if the pilot has inbound bearing information, time to impact information (so the pilot can jerk into a beam position and fox the doppler), and at least  a 1/4 ratio gee instant turn rate (jerk) on the inbounds.
 
For a 20 gee jerk missile the plane needs a 5 gee maneuver at least. For a 50 gee missile like an Amraam in its NEZ, the plane is DEAD.
 
B.
 

 

R

 
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VisigothCAS       2/22/2013 2:33:56 PM


Is our Air Force (and other service branches) out of their minds?  Who was responsible for this weapons program and if they aren't retired, then why aren't they being drawn and quartered? Didn't these arrogant fools learn *anything* from the experience with the F-4 Phantoms in Viet Nam?  
 
For the US to be building weapons systems that can't fight is the ultimate dereliction of duty, let alone an appalling waste of taxpayer money. 

link


Watch the movie "The Pentagon Wars." That movie follows the development of the Bradley and shows the flaws of the procurement system. It is a comedy, but if they had made a serious movie you wouldn't be able to sit through because you'd get so mad.
 
You might also google the Growler. There is a presentation out there someone did that deatils how flawed and corrupt the design of that one vehicle was.
 
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Belisarius1234    And another thread screws up?   2/22/2013 3:53:36 PM
What is going on?
 
B.
 
 
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sublimebohemian    forgive the deviation   3/1/2013 2:52:33 PM
It may seem a little off topic however I find myself wondering this:
 
 
People say planes like the F-22 will be some of the last manned fighter aircraft.
 
Why? 
 
I'm under, the perhaps mistaken, impression that it might not be terribly difficult to disable a fleet of UAV aircraft with EMPs and just jamming whatever waves they're getting control from? 
 
If the UAVs are programmed and relatively autonomous doesn't that present problems too? Could they not be compromised in some way?
 
Maybe ya'll could enlighten this civilian.
 
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Belisarius1234    Right on all counts.    3/7/2013 11:43:22 PM
But with  a FARADAY DEFENSE and artificial intelligences the hope springs eternal that a robot fighter can work.
 
We have working examples of what those aircraft would in practice resemble. They are called cruise missiles.
 
Of practical necessity we make those autonomous kamikazis.
 
B.
 
 
 
 
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sublimebohemian       3/15/2013 8:08:14 PM
From what I understand, a Faraday cage doesn't work if the amount of EM power is at a certain level. (though the example I'm thinking of is a massive solar event. I am unaware if we can create fields of comparable power)
 
 I would be cautious about becoming too reliant on such weapon systems strategically.  It could be an Achilles heel a serious opponent could exploit. This civilian would not be happy seeing ourselves creating a cyber warfare choke point. I imagine even if the command centers of these drones were decentralized they would present targets that might be easily engaged or disrupted enough to present a exploitable weakness to us. Man is harder to EM zap for the moment it seems. The Chinese appear to be more than able and willing to compromise our infrastructure right now. Skirmishing with us to learn how better to do it. The things that are available to for me to read I presume to be the tip of an iceberg. Knowing that one should never underestimate human incompetence - I'd present this whisper of caution to hopefully echo.
 
Versus relatively primitive bearded misogynistic zealots and the military wing of PETA I'm certain they'd be fairly efficient. We shouldn't presume the same would remain true with anyone else.
 
Nor would they be viable if the environment itself became an issue. Imagine not only needing be concerned with your logistical train... the weather terrestrially... but then imagine being in a joined long term battle where all solar monitoring sats have been neutralized and a nice solar flare pops up at the wrong time. Can you say Spanish Armada?
 
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