Again. Russians were not known for supplying allies with top of the line equipment, especially after they pulled out of both Germany and Yugoslavia. They only left the old, no longer used stuff. Come on, Serbs have mostly t-72s, those are antiquated by even russian standards.

Perhaps I misspoke, what I meant to say is that the Iraqis had the most comprehensive, tighly integrated air defence network in the world. They did not have the most modern equipment, that is true. By the way I am currently in Iraq at a former Iraqi air base in Balad.

We are back to the perenial problem: You can't just buy an air defence system - You can waste money on a lot of hardware, but there is more to air defence than that. From the information I've seen: Gulf 2: The Iraqi air defence was to all intents and purpose out of action BEFORE the war started. Gulf 1: With the proper organisation and training, the Iraqi air defence could have made much damage. The problem was - so far as I can figure - there was a rigorious set-up with no plan B. I.e. Once the central control was lost, there didn't seem to be any control. I did not help, that the fighters were told to fly in the wrong direction.

Iraqi air defences and tactical co-ordination capabilities were compromised before the shooting war started. eg upload of trojans into the air traffic management systems (articles in both JED and ISR if I recall correctly) Spec forces were happily chomping away at some of the french and german fibre optical cables that were running out to the air defence systems. they were choked before they clould get a decent breath of fresh air. that doesn't diminish the air war at all - it reinforces the impact of a co-ordinated joint services frustration and destruction effort. The fact that all the US services were able to interact at a level that would have been deemed impossible in earlier times is a tacit lesson on how quickly the US learns from its past mistakes and moves forward without losing too much sleep about it. That is a level of ewfficiency that not too many others can dream about - let alone demonstrate in the field (where it ultimately counts)

There are some many factors that led to the demise of the Iraqi air defenses that they cannot all be listed here but a few things are: 1. The USAF bobmbed all power generation capabilities in Iraq which shuts down some radar sites 2. Fixed locations are easy targets for cruise missiles 3. Stealth aircraft can easily take out command & control facilities which effectively means the whole system is now scattered, i.e. each site is operating independently 4. Electronic warfare played havoc with Iraqi air defenses 5. Anti-radation missiles 'discouraged' radar operators from operating their radars The Iraqis were absolutely overwhelmed and were anticipating an unimaginative, attrition warfare conflict similar to their experience with Iran. Fighting someone like the US who has much better information, i.e. better picture of the battlefield, is simply suicide.

Your stats are off, Rubicon--the Iraqis had SA-6s (the kind used in the Yom Kippur war), and I'm pretty sure they had SA-8s and SA-9s as well. The newest Russian SAM system is the S-300, which NATO has codenamed SA-12 Grumble, I believe. The SA-3 has been out of date since the Vietnam War, and is rarely used, as it was intended for use against bomber streams. The Iraqi air defense system was very well-integrated and built by the French, not the Russians (although it used Russian SAM and AAA systems, which are pretty good). This was the Kari system (Iraq spelled backwards in French). The French government, who was more interested in being our allies then rather than providing aid and comfort to our common enemy, gave us the blueprints to Kari. That, and the tactics we had developed and refined at extremely high cost over North Vietnam allowed us to slam the Iraqis in Gulf War I. You're right in saying that the Iraqis didn't have the best air defense system in the world, but it was pretty damn good nonetheless.

so did Iraq end up having any Kulchugas that Ukraine was accused of selling to them?

"Your stats are off, Rubicon--the Iraqis had SA-6s (the kind used in the Yom Kippur war), and I'm pretty sure they had SA-8s and SA-9s as well. The newest Russian SAM system is the S-300, which NATO has codenamed SA-12 Grumble, I believe. The SA-3 has been out of date since the Vietnam War, and is rarely used, as it was intended for use against bomber streams." First of all yes I raq had about 125 SA 8's+SA 6s and 125 SA 9s. Which does not constitute that much as far as area coverages is concerned. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-defence-equipment.htm Oh and from the total number it leaves very little room for SA 12s, given that SA16s (which are handheld are included), not to mention ROland and Aspide. http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/iraqiarmedforces.cfm I would hardly call this a very good air defense, not to mention only 300 aircraft, half of which where not serviceable. May be the had a coordinated radar and what not, but they hardly had sufficient forces in sufficient numbers to suppress allied air. Not to mention that their coordination was interrupted as well as the training regimens of air defense were unrealistic at best. I would easily call it one of the worst anti-air defenses in the Middle East, forget the World.

As the following article shows, Kolchugas persented much more threat to enforcing the no fly zone, than in active combat operations vs Iraq. As a passive radar system, it would be good enough to surprize/ambush unsuspecting pilots, who would know that theyare ambushed only after missiles are fired at them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2326451.stm In active operations, Iraqi air defense coordination was interrupted as well as it was oversaturated with targets, who in many cases took out air defense systems, even before they got painted. Not to mention special forces and commando units on the ground.

"I have been doing a lot of research and it appears that the Russian Su-37 is currently the most technologically advanced plane in the world. I do not want to hear about the JSF or F-22 as they are not in production yet. Besides the Russians have a counter plane to the JSF, the PAK FA or I-2000/Interceptor-2000/Istribityel-2000." Wait a minute. First you say that the Su-37 is the most advanced plane in the world, then you try a ignore the F-22 because apparently it isnt in production. Two things. 1. The Su-37 is a Technology Demonstrator. It doesnt even fly anymore IIRC. Russia has no plans to procure it. 2. The F-22 is in production.