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Subject: Replace Gun with Laser on JSF
Softwar    12/21/2006 11:28:26 AM
I am wrestling with the question of whether to arm the F-35 with a conventional cannon or replace it with a 25KW+ laser fed from the engine shaft design used for the VTOL forward fan. Would there be any advantage to this? I wonder if the merits of such a weapon combined with the high cost would offset the results from a standard 20mm shell and its kinetic energy.
 
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reefdiver       1/1/2007 5:03:03 PM
This has been discussed quite a bit here in the past.  I believe the plan is for a 100+KW solid state laser. They're working on something like a 10MW (don't recall exact #) generator that will fit in the fan space. 
 
I think it would be nice to field something smaller in the 25KW range asap and use it close-in for defense against SAM's and A-A missiles. 25KW should be sufficient to destroy incoming missiles. Laser equipped F-35's could then be used for escorting bombing packages of either F-15/16/18's or B-1's and B-52's.
 
One possible problem with lasers in such a role: they take a few seconds to take out a target. Multiple launches could perhaps overwhelm them.
 
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DarthAmerica       1/1/2007 6:53:13 PM

This has been discussed quite a bit here in the past.  I believe the plan is for a 100+KW solid state laser. They're working on something like a 10MW (don't recall exact #) generator that will fit in the fan space. 

I think it would be nice to field something smaller in the 25KW range asap and use it close-in for defense against SAM's and A-A missiles. 25KW should be sufficient to destroy incoming missiles. Laser equipped F-35's could then be used for escorting bombing packages of either F-15/16/18's or B-1's and B-52's.

One possible problem with lasers in such a role: they take a few seconds to take out a target. Multiple launches could perhaps overwhelm them.

Close in defense against SAMs and AAMs? Few seconds to target? This is compared to current missiles in ability to perform these missions its a quantum leap. Also,  these lasers will by no means be limited to SAMs and AAMs. Most aircraft could be destroyed if exposed to as little as (700 W)/cm^2. Some of the solid state lasers currently under development could do that out to ~30-100 miles or greater in about 1 second. Whats more, the laser could be slewed to another target in about 1 to 2 seconds time. An F-35 so armed would be practically invincible against any missile armed opponent unless there was bad weather.


DA
 
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reefdiver       1/2/2007 6:04:54 PM




This has been discussed quite a bit here in the past.  I believe the plan is for a 100+KW solid state laser. They're working on something like a 10MW (don't recall exact #) generator that will fit in the fan space. 



I think it would be nice to field something smaller in the 25KW range asap and use it close-in for defense against SAM's and A-A missiles. 25KW should be sufficient to destroy incoming missiles. Laser equipped F-35's could then be used for escorting bombing packages of either F-15/16/18's or B-1's and B-52's.



One possible problem with lasers in such a role: they take a few seconds to take out a target. Multiple launches could perhaps overwhelm them.



Close in defense against SAMs and AAMs? Few seconds to target? This is compared to current missiles in ability to perform these missions its a quantum leap. Also,  these lasers will by no means be limited to SAMs and AAMs. Most aircraft could be destroyed if exposed to as little as (700 W)/cm^2. Some of the solid state lasers currently under development could do that out to ~30-100 miles or greater in about 1 second. Whats more, the laser could be slewed to another target in about 1 to 2 seconds time. An F-35 so armed would be practically invincible against any missile armed opponent unless there was bad weather.


DA

I believe I've read the laser needs to be lasing the (ballistic missle?) targets something like 3 to 4 seconds for assurred destruction. Again, I don't believe this includes targeting and slew time. The ABL uses separate targeting lasers so this won't be much of an issue for it. Don't have any idea what the F-35 will do in this respect.  At any rate - its not instantaneous and could perhaps be overwhelmed although its not likely. If 700W/cm^2 on target will do the job, that would be great - I wonder what that translates to at the laser source for a range of say 15KM?  If so, it would seem they could implement something like 5KW very, very rapidly, and it might be worth it. Use it for close range (maybe 10-15KM) defense rather than trying for the 100KW.  Fly above AAA and the only thing that will kill you will be a rail gun. Of course, if it would really be that reliable, you could forget stealth and night raids. Simply add several of these to a C-17, load it with JDAM's, and fly at 30,000+ feet in broad daylight. Somehow I don't think its that easy.
 
Of course I sometimes wonder if AESA will ultimately be able to kill incoming SAM's, A-A, and aircraft. Use the generator proposed for the F-35's fan cavity to super-power its AESA. Your radar would be even more multi-functional without the added weight of the laser system. You might also get more rapid targeting and destruction as there is no mechanical slewing.

 
 
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DarthAmerica    reefdiver reply   1/2/2007 6:15:58 PM

I believe I've read the laser needs to be lasing the (ballistic missle?) targets something like 3 to 4 seconds for assurred destruction. Again, I don't believe this includes targeting and slew time. The ABL uses separate targeting lasers so this won't be much of an issue for it. Don't have any idea what the F-35 will do in this respect.  At any rate - its not instantaneous and could perhaps be overwhelmed although its not likely. If 700W/cm^2 on target will do the job, that would be great - I wonder what that translates to at the laser source for a range of say 15KM?  If so, it would seem they could implement something like 5KW very, very rapidly, and it might be worth it. Use it for close range (maybe 10-15KM) defense rather than trying for the 100KW.  Fly above AAA and the only thing that will kill you will be a rail gun. Of course, if it would really be that reliable, you could forget stealth and night raids. Simply add several of these to a C-17, load it with JDAM's, and fly at 30,000+ feet in broad daylight. Somehow I don't think its that easy.
 

Of course I sometimes wonder if AESA will ultimately be able to kill incoming SAM's, A-A, and aircraft. Use the generator proposed for the F-35's fan cavity to super-power its AESA. Your radar would be even more multi-functional without the added weight of the laser system. You might also get more rapid targeting and destruction as there is no mechanical slewing.
I agree that its not going to be easy to field these systems. But once they are the operational concept will be! Remember how difficult it "used to be" to hit a point target with an aerial bomb? Its trivia now. But the technology itself took decades to mature and nobody is even remotely close to US PGM capability(remember to look at the system level).

With regard to AESA HPM capabilities. The already have limited weapons effects capability. Look at some of the deployed systems already available. Imagine the classified capabilities!


DA

 
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doggtag       1/2/2007 6:18:21 PM
If we really want to arm bombers with a defense weapon,
since that ATL Army Tactical Laser is supposed to be a pallet load for a C-130 or, ideally, a Chinook helo,
would it really take up too much room inside the aft section of a B-1 or B-52?
------
 
Laser Gunship Fires Advanced Tactical Laser (ATL) Against Ground Targets
Posted on Monday, October 16 @ 10:11:33 PDT by davidc

New and Future Technologyhttp://www.defensereview.com/images/topics/9573.gif" align=right vspace=10 border=0> The following is a Boeing press release:

 

ST. LOUIS, Oct. 13, 2006 -- The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA] has begun flight testing for the Advanced Tactical Laser (ATL) Advanced Concept Technology Demonstration (ACTD) program and has generated "first light" of ATL's high-energy chemical laser in ground tests, achieving two key milestones in the laser gunship development effort.

During the "low-power" flight tests, which began Oct. 10 and conclude this fall, the ATL ACTD system will find and track ground targets at White Sands Missile Range, N.M. A low-power, solid-state laser will serve as a surrogate for ATL's high-power chemical laser.

To prepare for the tests, the ATL aircraft, a C-130H from the U.S. Air Force 46th Test Wing, was...



outfitted with flight demonstration hardware at Crestview Aerospace Corp. in Crestview, Fla. The hardware includes the beam director and optical control bench, which will direct the laser beam to its target; weapon system consoles, which will display high-resolution imagery and enable the tracking of targets; and sensors.

Boeing fired the high-energy chemical laser for the first time in ground tests on Sept. 21 in Albuquerque, N.M. -- an achievement known as "first light." Ground tests of the laser will conclude this fall. By 2007, Boeing will install the device on the aircraft and fire it in-flight at mission-representative ground targets to demonstrate the military utility of high energy-lasers. The test team will fire the laser through a rotating turret that extends through an existing 50-inch-diameter hole in the aircraft's belly.

"ATL will transform the battlefield by giving the warfighter a speed-of-light, precision engagement capability that will reduce collateral damage dramatically," said Pat Shanahan, vice president and general manager of Boeing Missile Defense Systems. "The start of flight and laser testing shows that Boeing is making solid progress toward making this revolutionary capability a reality."

Boeing is developing ATL for the U.S. Department of Defense through an ACTD program.

ATL will destroy, damage or disable targets with little to no collateral damage, supporting missions on the battlefield and in urban operations. ATL will produce scaleable effects, meaning the weapon operator will be able to select the degree and nature of the damage done to a target by choosing a specific aimpoint and laser shot duration. For example, targeting the fuel tank of a vehicle could result in total destruction of the vehicle, while targeting a tire might result in the vehicle stopping without injury to the driver.

Boeing's Advanced Tactical Laser industry team includes L-3 Communications/Brashear, which made the laser turret, and HYTEC, Inc., which made various structural elements of the weapon system.

 

A unit of The Boeing Company, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is one of the world's largest space and defense businesses. Headquartered in St. Louis, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems is a $30.8 billion business. It provides network-centric system solutions to its global military, government and commercial customers. It is a leading provider of intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance system

 
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Herald1234    Just MASER the bastards.   1/2/2007 6:23:14 PM








This has been discussed quite a bit here in the past.  I believe the plan is for a 100+KW solid state laser. They're working on something like a 10MW (don't recall exact #) generator that will fit in the fan space. 





I think it would be nice to field something smaller in the 25KW range asap and use it close-in for defense against SAM's and A-A missiles. 25KW should be sufficient to destroy incoming missiles. Laser equipped F-35's could then be used for escorting bombing packages of either F-15/16/18's or B-1's and B-52's.





One possible problem with lasers in such a role: they take a few seconds to take out a target. Multiple launches could perhaps overwhelm them.





Close in defense against SAMs and AAMs? Few seconds to target? This is compared to current missiles in ability to perform these missions its a quantum leap. Also,  these lasers will by no means be limited to SAMs and AAMs. Most aircraft could be destroyed if exposed to as little as (700 W)/cm^2. Some of the solid state lasers currently under development could do that out to ~30-100 miles or greater in about 1 second. Whats more, the laser could be slewed to another target in about 1 to 2 seconds time. An F-35 so armed would be practically invincible against any missile armed opponent unless there was bad weather.


DA


I believe I've read the laser needs to be lasing the (ballistic missle?) targets something like 3 to 4 seconds for assurred destruction. Again, I don't believe this includes targeting and slew time. The ABL uses separate targeting lasers so this won't be much of an issue for it. Don't have any idea what the F-35 will do in this respect.  At any rate - its not instantaneous and could perhaps be overwhelmed although its not likely. If 700W/cm^2 on target will do the job, that would be great - I wonder what that translates to at the laser source for a range of say 15KM?  If so, it would seem they could implement something like 5KW very, very rapidly, and it might be worth it. Use it for close range (maybe 10-15KM) defense rather than trying for the 100KW.  Fly above AAA and the only thing that will kill you will be a rail gun. Of course, if it would really be that reliable, you could forget stealth and night raids. Simply add several of these to a C-17, load it with JDAM's, and fly at 30,000+ feet in broad daylight. Somehow I don't think its that easy.

 

Of course I sometimes wonder if AESA will ultimately be able to kill incoming SAM's, A-A, and aircraft. Use the generator proposed for the F-35's fan cavity to super-power its AESA. Your radar would be even more multi-functional without the added weight of the laser system. You might also get more rapid targeting and destruction as there is no mechanical slewing.


 

Fried chicken in the cockpit and melted electronics if there's no faraday defense. I suspect AESA radar could do it now..

Herald



 
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AussieEngineer       1/4/2007 8:48:37 AM
where are the deflector shields when you need them
 
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reefdiver       1/4/2007 11:15:08 AM
Some clarification: do you speculate current AESA systems might be able to accurate target, track, and destroy and incoming missiles?  If so, this would be a quantum leap forward.  Most aircraft probably couldn't protect themselves from this at close range either. If the answer is no, would more power such as that supplied by an F-35's fan pod mounted generator, make it feasible?
You'd be talking about invulnerability for the F-35 (for a while anyway...). Who needs stealth - the F-18, and F-15 along with the F-22 will all have AESA also?  Add the laser canon for ground attack and taking out ballistic missiles...
 
I'm a tad skeptical - such AESA capabilities seem too good to be true.
 
 
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Softwar       1/4/2007 11:53:15 AM

Some clarification: do you speculate current AESA systems might be able to accurate target, track, and destroy and incoming missiles?  If so, this would be a quantum leap forward.  Most aircraft probably couldn't protect themselves from this at close range either. If the answer is no, would more power such as that supplied by an F-35's fan pod mounted generator, make it feasible?

You'd be talking about invulnerability for the F-35 (for a while anyway...). Who needs stealth - the F-18, and F-15 along with the F-22 will all have AESA also?  Add the laser canon for ground attack and taking out ballistic missiles...

 

I'm a tad skeptical - such AESA capabilities seem too good to be true.

 


Aviation Week already ran an article noting that the USAF had screwed up air-to-air and cruise missiles in flight using the F-22 AESA.  Such missiles are usually designed to be as lightweight as possible so they are very vulnerable to having their electronics fried.  The AESA will most likely not be as effective against ballistic missiles because warheads and guidance electronics are typically well sheilded.  AAM and CM systems have a wide variety of areas where the AESA microwaves can penetrate - access panels and lightweight (thin) nose cones for example.
 
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Jeff_F_F       1/23/2007 6:32:23 PM
Wow, as if the F-22 wasn't dominant enough already...
You probably die before you see it.
If you do see it, you still have a fight to launch a missle at it before it launches at you.
Even if you launch first, it will just kill your missle and then kill you anyway.
Sucks to be you.
 
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