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Subject: Worse than pirates...
free_man 12    5/31/2010 8:55:33 AM
How is it possible that a bunch of civilians using "steel rods and knives" could overwhelm Israeli Commandos to the point where they need to use deadly force, killing more than 10 people? Even if a few handguns were taken from the commandos in the tussle, that's not a reason for 10+ to die. These are supposed to be world-class marksmen who, besides never allowing their sidearm to be taken by civies, should be able to deal with the situation without leaving nearly 100 dead and injured. Maybe they need to go to the Somalia School of Piracy to learn how to take over a ship without killing and injuring almost all on board. Unless we learn about some stashed AK's on board, which might not even be believed if true, the house may be brought down on Israel. 1. Turkey will cut of diplo relations 2. EU will enforce boycott on Settler/Israeli goods 3. Obama will not stop UN from dastardly sanctions or worse 4. Israel/Egypt may have to allow Gaza to be fully open, enabling them to arm to the teeth and becoming an open terrorist state 5. start of a third Intifada 6. lead to major increase in both orchestrated and solo acts of terror inside Israel proper 7. lead to next full-scale (Syria/Hezbo/Iran/Gaza) war soon, without strong interntational support for Israel Not looking good at all...
 
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Wicked Chinchilla       6/2/2010 10:17:14 AM

So what should Israel have done?  If they don't have a blockade it won't be long before ships carrying weapons will be docking in Gaza.  Soon Hamas fighters won't just be sniping at the Israelis with AK-47s and rockets, they be engaging them with tanks and modern artillery.  Sure the Israelis would take them out fairly quickly, but you can be sure that those cowards in Hamas will place their most valuable weapons in population centers so any Israeli attack will result in civilian casualties and additional international condemnation. 

 

The crew on the "relief flotilla" had planned to approach Gaza during daylight hours so they could see an Israeli raid coming, and I've read that they were planning to put children on the decks to deter the Isrealis from raiding the ships (read "human shields").  The Israeli commandos were armed primarily with pepperball guns because they expected the "peace activists" to do what people usually do when they are confronted by guys with guns and body armor, and that's either run and hide or surrender.  What this Israelis didn't count on was that the people they encountered on the deck weren't normal, rational human beings, but crazed Islamofascists that welcomed the opportunity to die in an engagement with the Zionists.  We don't have ray guns yet that will knock people out for hours, so what else could they have done?  The Isrealis clearly tried to end this situation with little or no loss of life, but the Hamas militants on the ship chose to fight the Israelis and compel them to use deadly force.  Some of the "peace activists" even tied the fast ropes to the ship, which could have very well crashed the helicopters carrying the commandoes and possibly killed everyone on the ship. 

 

How would you have handled this, Darth?  I realize that in your perfect world Israel probably wouldn't even exist, but God willing it's going to be here for a long time.  I've said it before, but the Palestinians could have had their state decades ago had they followed the lessons of Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. and adopted a policy of nonviolent resistance.  Thousands of Palestinian teenagers holding hands in the streets and singing "We Shall Overcome" in Arabic would accomplish more than Islamic terrorists have over the last sixty years, but the Palestinians lack the moral courage and character to do this.  I just wish the international community would give the Palestinians a fraction of the scrutiny that it heaps upon Israel. 



Did you ignore what Darth wrote?  Hes not anti-Israeli at all, nor am I.  We both just think this raid was a really, really bad call because the Global Political consequences badly outweight whatever short-term gain they might net.
 
The hard part about it is there WAS no good decision to be made.  You had bad choices, and really bad choices.  This was a REALLY bad choice.  There was absolutely no room for error, huge chances of complications, and no possibility of being able to make it look like anything but Commandos storming a humanitarian convoy to the rest of the world.  Short of them finding a nuclear weapon in the midst of the convoy it was absolutely guaranteed to look bloody awful on the world stage.
 
The actual reality is irrelevant when you consider the implications of what the picture is.
 
As to what they could have done?  I dont know.  I have to wonder if there was any halfway not shitty option to keep them out.  The U.S. played tag with the Russians when we blockaded Cuba using Maritime laws concerning right of way.  Could they have just done the same and played an endless game of chicken?  You could physically block the port, damage the docks, whatever.  I guarantee you it would still have gone down badly, but much, much less worse than the current scenario.
 
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YelliChink       6/2/2010 11:07:31 AM

and it already begins...lets see how long egypt relaxes its gaza border for...

 

as reported on Drudge

 

By RIZEK ABDEL JAWAD









 RAFAH, Gaza Strip (AP) - Several thousand Gazans are making a furious rush to the Egyptian border, hoping to take advantage of a rare chance to escape the blockaded territory.


Egypt announced Tuesday it was temporarily opening the border, a day after an Israeli naval raid killed nine pro-Palestinian activists sailing to Gaza.


Cars with suitcases piled on their roofs are streaming to the border, while many others are lugging overstaffed bags on foot. Dozens of Hamas police with automatic weapons are patrolling the area to maintain order.





The Egyptian response is more or less a knee jerk reaction and a publicist move. They know fairly well the link between Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood. If they don't control their side of the border, and let Israeli blockade crumble under the pressure, then they'll find the weapons, cash and terrorists aren't only going from their side to the other very soon.
 
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Photon       6/2/2010 11:28:44 AM
Looks like the whole darn thing has been a set-up.  They knew perfectly well how the Israelis were going to respond to an incoming convoy that has an intention to break the Gaza embargo.  I think Israel has goofed on this one as the ship contained too many 3rd country citizens.  Right now, they have to deal with pro-Palastinian assholes all the way from Turkey to Sweden.  Even if the Israelis can provide evidence for their case, most people are only going to be fixated on 'police brutality'.
 
In the worst case scenario, perhaps the US should start making plans to dump Turkey:  Start alienating Turkey from both NATO and EU.  An added benefit of dumping turkey is that the EU and Turkey have been at odds with one another and the US might consider exacerbating this tension -- divide and rule.
 
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PlatypusMaximus    Rendered Inactivist   6/2/2010 12:45:37 PM
Non-event.
This is another day at the office in the Middle East. 
People tried to run a military blockade...in Israeli territorial waters... they engaged armed soldiers with violence..and only after the soldiers realized they were under live fire, did they did what soldiers do.
 
Israel shouldn't waste 1 second of their day worrying about the world's professional victims. They don't spend any of their day worried about you.
Israel should keep doing whatever they need to do and the rest of the world can piss off...this is survival.
The only failure I see is a continued faith in non-lethal force.
 
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       6/2/2010 1:05:49 PM
Oops. it was intl. waters.
Don't care.
 
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Ispose    My Opinion   6/2/2010 1:18:05 PM
Turkeys current gov't has shown that it is anti-Israel and stooges of the Iranians...seems to me iran financed Erdogens political party. Hopefully turkeys military will come to its senses and overthrow this gov't as it is not in Turkeys interest to become an iranian puppet.
Israel should mimic Turkeys stance to helping those "helpless" Palestinian by ading the "oppressed" Kurds with military assistance, anti aircraft and anti tank rockets and training...after all two can play at that game.
How can the world criticize israel for helping Kurdish Freedom fighters battle Turkish oppression?. After all Hamas just preaches genocide...Turkey actually did it.
 
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YelliChink       6/2/2010 1:18:10 PM

In the worst case scenario, perhaps the US should start making plans to dump Turkey:  Start alienating Turkey from both NATO and EU.  An added benefit of dumping turkey is that the EU and Turkey have been at odds with one another and the US might consider exacerbating this tension -- divide and rule.

Alienating Israel is better description of the current US policy. Given how the EU managed itself to the ground, I doubt that most Turks want to join the EU as much as they wanted 10 years ago. The debt of Turkey, at this moment, is not as bad as most of major EU nations. Unlike some EU nations, such as the UK, Turkey has built up their production capability and high tech industry over the past 10 years. So they are more or less self-sufficient in terms of industrial products. If such schism ever occurs, Turks have the upper hand over most major EU nations.
Too bad that most Westerners don't see it necessary to meddle Turkey's politics the way Farsi and Arabs see.
 
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YelliChink       6/2/2010 1:22:52 PM

Turkeys current gov't has shown that it is anti-Israel and stooges of the Iranians...seems to me iran financed Erdogens political party. Hopefully turkeys military will come to its senses and overthrow this gov't as it is not in Turkeys interest to become an iranian puppet.

Israel should mimic Turkeys stance to helping those "helpless" Palestinian by ading the "oppressed" Kurds with military assistance, anti aircraft and anti tank rockets and training...after all two can play at that game.

How can the world criticize israel for helping Kurdish Freedom fighters battle Turkish oppression?. After all Hamas just preaches genocide...Turkey actually did it.



Unfortunately, Israelis had better swallow it. Turks are the people you don't want to mess with in ME, unless you are Greek. However, they do have their own problems with Erdogan. Just wait and be patient. The tide will change, for better or worse, sooner or later.
 
 
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DarthAmerica    @Photon and Smitty   6/2/2010 3:03:55 PM

Looks like the whole darn thing has been a set-up.  They knew perfectly well how the Israelis were going to respond to an incoming convoy that has an intention to break the Gaza embargo.  I think Israel has goofed on this one as the ship contained too many 3rd country citizens.  Right now, they have to deal with pro-Palastinian assholes all the way from Turkey to Sweden.  Even if the Israelis can provide evidence for their case, most people are only going to be fixated on 'police brutality'.

 

In the worst case scenario, perhaps the US should start making plans to dump Turkey:  Start alienating Turkey from both NATO and EU.  An added benefit of dumping turkey is that the EU and Turkey have been at odds with one another and the US might consider exacerbating this tension -- divide and rule.


This highlights the depth of the misunderstanding that exist about the US-Turkish relationship. Right now, the Turks are far more valuable to the US and NATO that the Israelis are as a strategic partner. Throughout the entire ME to include Iraq and and Afghanistan Turkey is critical to operations. They also counter balance Iran in the absence of the Iraqis. Dumping Turkey would risk much of the gains we've made. I'm not saying that we have to "dump" Israel but I am saying that Israel is A LOT more dependent on the United States than the other way around. This is why things are the way they are and why Obama and Bush before him have so much leverage with regard to Israel.
This is not about being anti-Israel. It's about being pro-American interest. Israel's security concerns have diverged from ours and it's just that simple. The cold hard reality here is that Israel is going to have to make some serious concessions that it otherwise wouldn't in order to remain viable.

I appreciate the loyaty to Israel some of you have. But in order to understand this, you have to stop thinking about it like a game of cops and robbers, GI Joe vs Cobra or Autobots vs Decepticons. Geopolitics don't work that way.

Now to answer Smitty. What would I have done? Well that depends. The true answer is that there shouldn't have beena blockade in the first place. Not because I support one side over the other or have anything against blockades but because I don't believe in ineffective strategies. The Turks just proved that. All of that not withstanding I would have been better prepared. For starters, there was no secret that these ships were coming. I would have organized my military options with an emphasis on avoiding confrontation with THIS PARTICULAR CONVOY. That's because it was an obvious trap. With as much notice as Israel had, it should have lobbied the U.N., Turkey and the USA to stop the convoy. Failing that, I would have carried out show of force to try and convince the ships to stop. If that didn't work then I would have deployed all available ISR methods to monitor the ships and their pax and cargo and allowed them to proceed. If I could confirm something more than humanitarian aid on board I would have destroyed the ships. Otherwise I would fight this diplomatically and in the court of public opinion. But by no means would I have ever put commandoes on that ship the way the Israelis did.

Even if I suspected the ships were loaded with SCUDs. Does fast roping into the center of a protesting crowd in such cramped space seem logical to you Smitty? That was just plain bad tactics and who ever concived that operation put the commandoes and the ships crews at tremendous risk. The results were lethal and that is unacceptable. I've dealth with a situation similar to this and it was immediately obvious to me to maintain a protective bubble around my men and to keep the angry crowd away from us and the individual we were trying to rescue. It was a serious tactical error that compounded and amplified the series of Israeli errors that allowed it in the first place. Had those men not been put on that ship in that manner, the fall out from this would not have been as bad.

 

http://www.cnas.org/files/u16/aDbBc0.png" width="500" border="0" alt="" />


Think about it...
 
 
-DA
 
 
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PlatypusMaximus       6/2/2010 3:54:29 PM
I appreciate the loyaty to Israel some of you have. But in order to understand this, you have to stop thinking about it like a game of cops and robbers, GI Joe vs Cobra or Autobots vs Decepticons. Geopolitics don't work that way.
 
Now to answer Smitty. What would I have done? Well that depends. The true answer is that there shouldn't have beena blockade in the first place. Not because I support one side over the other or have anything against blockades but because I don't believe in ineffective strategies. The Turks just proved that.
 
By DeceptiCon, you mean Mitt Romney, right? It's more good vs. evil, and I wouldn't need to struggle with explaining that, especially to an idiot.
The blockade, and is, a typical and effective response to the threat they face. It was enforced successfully and effectively.
As evidenced by a huge decrease in attacks , and the ships never made it through. My only point is if I were Israeli, the fact that it might bother you or anyone else would consume zero point zero percent of my time.
If you're just going to make Israel look bad...You have a dumb plan and you don't understand how things work
If you're going to run a military blockade, you had better bring hell with you, or you will lose terribly. The Israelis just proved that.


 
 
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