Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Israel Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Worse than pirates...
free_man 12    5/31/2010 8:55:33 AM
How is it possible that a bunch of civilians using "steel rods and knives" could overwhelm Israeli Commandos to the point where they need to use deadly force, killing more than 10 people? Even if a few handguns were taken from the commandos in the tussle, that's not a reason for 10+ to die. These are supposed to be world-class marksmen who, besides never allowing their sidearm to be taken by civies, should be able to deal with the situation without leaving nearly 100 dead and injured. Maybe they need to go to the Somalia School of Piracy to learn how to take over a ship without killing and injuring almost all on board. Unless we learn about some stashed AK's on board, which might not even be believed if true, the house may be brought down on Israel. 1. Turkey will cut of diplo relations 2. EU will enforce boycott on Settler/Israeli goods 3. Obama will not stop UN from dastardly sanctions or worse 4. Israel/Egypt may have to allow Gaza to be fully open, enabling them to arm to the teeth and becoming an open terrorist state 5. start of a third Intifada 6. lead to major increase in both orchestrated and solo acts of terror inside Israel proper 7. lead to next full-scale (Syria/Hezbo/Iran/Gaza) war soon, without strong interntational support for Israel Not looking good at all...
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14   NEXT
smitty237    Platypus    6/10/2010 1:10:56 AM
I admit that I had to chuckle when I read your post, but in reality the "reverse flotillas" will have no effect.  The Turks will stop the ships and kick the asses of anyone that resists without a thought.  When you point out the hypocrisy of this tactic the Turks will look you dead in the eye and explain that they cannot allow aid to go to the Kurds because they are a terrorist group that are threatening Turkish security.  They will see no irony whatsoever in this explanation.  It's like arguing illegal immigration with a Mexican national.  They argue that the United States should have open borders, but when you point out that Mexico's border with Guatemala is militarized and that Mexico had rather draconian immigration laws, they will tell you with a straight face that Mexico has to have harsh immigration restrictions because illegal aliens are a drain on the Mexican economy and take away jobs that should go to Mexican citizens.  Unreal. 
 
Quote    Reply

PlatypusMaximus       6/10/2010 8:14:22 AM
...and for another trillion, they'll rid us of greedy fatcats.
 
Long before the anchors are weighed, the do-gooders will have given us a thorough lesson in international maritime law.
...things like don't pull a knife on the coast guard; don't pick a fight with a commando....and other timber-shivering drivelswiggery.
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Wicked Chinchilla       6/10/2010 10:05:56 AM

timber-shivering drivelswiggery. 


Ye be drownin' yerself in copious draughts of grog me thinks, matey, thems be piratical werds.
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica       6/10/2010 10:26:18 PM

I admit that I had to chuckle when I read your post, but in reality the "reverse flotillas" will have no effect.  The Turks will stop the ships and kick the asses of anyone that resists without a thought.  When you point out the hypocrisy of this tactic the Turks will look you dead in the eye and explain that they cannot allow aid to go to the Kurds because they are a terrorist group that are threatening Turkish security.  They will see no irony whatsoever in this explanation.  It's like arguing illegal immigration with a Mexican national.  They argue that the United States should have open borders, but when you point out that Mexico's border with Guatemala is militarized and that Mexico had rather draconian immigration laws, they will tell you with a straight face that Mexico has to have harsh immigration restrictions because illegal aliens are a drain on the Mexican economy and take away jobs that should go to Mexican citizens.  Unreal. 

Ladies and Gents if I may,

Analysis like those above are completely the wrong way to look at what's happening. Turkey is not acting out of any moral motivation. They are USING the Gaza situation to further their own greater goal of increasing their influence and credibility in the Middle East. This is because of Israel's ill advised and obsolete policies have made it vulnerable to this kind of "attack'. On the other hand, the Kurds have only the Iraqis and Americans to rely on for defense. And because Turkey is a much greater asset to America and Iraq than are the Kurds or Israel for that matter, you cannot make a relevant comparison. It's apples and oranges.

If Israel doesn't dramatically alter it's position while it can still do so on it's on terms. It may eventually be forced to do so and on terms much less favorable. Moreover, the Turkish calculus would have paid off. The Gaza siege must and will be ended. It's just how long and at what cost to Israel.

-DA 
 
Quote    Reply

AThousandYoung       6/10/2010 11:48:19 PM
Would a 0.50 cal do it? I suppose not if it's underwater.
 
Quote    Reply

smitty237    DA   6/10/2010 11:52:10 PM



I admit that I had to chuckle when I read your post, but in reality the "reverse flotillas" will have no effect.  The Turks will stop the ships and kick the asses of anyone that resists without a thought.  When you point out the hypocrisy of this tactic the Turks will look you dead in the eye and explain that they cannot allow aid to go to the Kurds because they are a terrorist group that are threatening Turkish security.  They will see no irony whatsoever in this explanation.  It's like arguing illegal immigration with a Mexican national.  They argue that the United States should have open borders, but when you point out that Mexico's border with Guatemala is militarized and that Mexico had rather draconian immigration laws, they will tell you with a straight face that Mexico has to have harsh immigration restrictions because illegal aliens are a drain on the Mexican economy and take away jobs that should go to Mexican citizens.  Unreal. 
Ladies and Gents if I may,

Analysis like those above are completely the wrong way to look at what's happening. Turkey is not acting out of any moral motivation. They are USING the Gaza situation to further their own greater goal of increasing their influence and credibility in the Middle East. This is because of Israel's ill advised and obsolete policies have made it vulnerable to this kind of "attack'. On the other hand, the Kurds have only the Iraqis and Americans to rely on for defense. And because Turkey is a much greater asset to America and Iraq than are the Kurds or Israel for that matter, you cannot make a relevant comparison. It's apples and oranges.
 
If Israel doesn't dramatically alter it's position while it can still do so on it's on terms. It may eventually be forced to do so and on terms much less favorable. Moreover, the Turkish calculus would have paid off. The Gaza siege must and will be ended. It's just how long and at what cost to Israel.
-DA 
My dear sir, if I may,
 
The analysis I was making was of the morally equivocancy that some nations or groups can use to condemn other's behavior while justifying their own.  I wasn't juxtaposing the Gaza flotilla to the Mexican immigration issue as much as I was commenting on how both Turkey and Mexico expect other countries to live up to a certain standard that they themselves do not honor.  If you examine my analysis under that light you could more accurately say it's more like comparing oranges to tangerines. 
 
As far as your second point goes, let's say Israel drops the blockade tomorrow and unlimited shipping is allowed into Gaza.  What do you really think is going to happen next?  Do you really think that Hamas is going to end it's terror campaign against Israel and make an effort to live in peace with its Israeli neighbors?  Do you really think that the Arab community, or the international community for that matter, will begin to cut Israel some slack once they drop the blockade? 
 
Personally, I believe that when or if the blockade is lifted the Israeli justification for the blockade will be proven true.  Namely, almost immediately groups that support Hamas will being shipping in heavy weapons.  Within a short time those weapons will be used against Israel.  This may be my opinion, but it is opinion based upon historical facts and precedent.  The only acceptable outcome to the Palestinian issue to most Arabs is the destruction of Israel.  Every concession that Israel makes brings them one step closer to the fulfillment of that goal. 
 
Just one last question, Darth.  Would it really bother you if Israel did cease to exist as a nation?  I'm not referring to the human losses.  For the sake of argument let's create the ludicrous scenario in which Israel ceased to exist but there was no loss of life.  If that were true would you really care, or do you think that the Middle East and the world in general would be a better place if there was no Israel? 
 
Regards.


 
 
Quote    Reply

Ezekiel       6/12/2010 3:07:24 PM
Infant mortality rates per 1000 live births, 2009:

Gaza: 17.71
West Bank: 15.41

Egypt: 26.2
Jordan: 17.03
Syria: 16.14
Libya: 20.87
Yemen: 56.77
Iraq: 41.16
Turkey: 24.84
Somalia: 107.42
Lebanon: 16.4
Eritria: 42.33
Djibouti: 56.65
Congo: 79.36
Sudan: 78.10

It appears that the people in the West Bank and Gaza should be sending aid and assistance to their neighbours,
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    @Smitty   6/13/2010 7:17:33 PM

Just one last question, Darth.  Would it really bother you if Israel did cease to exist as a nation?  I'm not referring to the human losses.  For the sake of argument let's create the ludicrous scenario in which Israel ceased to exist but there was no loss of life.  If that were true would you really care, or do you think that the Middle East and the world in general would be a better place if there was no Israel? 

 

Regards.

No, depending on the circumstances. I'm American, not Israeli. While I wish no ill will on any nation, as a student of history, I know that no nation state is sacrosanct. So long as said nations demise doesn't threaten my personal safety or American national security then why should I care? What's my interest?

The second part of your question has insufficient data to make any kind of meaningful reply I'm afraid.

Regards
-DA 




 
 
Quote    Reply

Ezekiel    Egypt closed for business   6/14/2010 1:03:28 AM
As I stated would be the case with the Egyptian-Gaza border...its relaxing was a momentary gesture. Whereas Darthy in full frothing mode, raving the futility of an Israeli blockade, which by the way Israel still upholds, one of his arguments he stated was that the Egyptian crossing would now be open thereby nullifying any Israeli blockade.
 
Wrong again

Egypt closes Gaza to Algerian aid

By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/13/2010 08:34
 
 
Despite the announcement a week ago that the Egyptian border with Gaza would be kept permanently open, Egypt refused to allow an Algerian aid convoy into Gaza on Saturday.

According to the Palestinian Information Center, the Egyptians refused to allow the convoy to enter and were willing to allow entry only to three Algerian parliamentarians who were accompanying the convoy.
 
 
Quote    Reply

DarthAmerica    Blockade Broken   6/17/2010 12:06:56 PM

Reporters' log: Gaza blockade eased

BBC correspondents report from the region after Israel announces it will ease the land blockade of the Gaza Strip and allow more civilian goods to enter the Palestinian territory.

1230 GMT: JON DONNISON, GAZA

Here in Gaza City, people seem more concerned with the World Cup than with Israel's announcement. The streets are relatively quiet with many tuned into the Argentina-South Korea game provided free on Hamas's television channel.

Gazans are at best cautious with regard to Israel's easing of the blockade. The overwhelming view is, let's wait and see if anything actually changes.

John Ging, head of UN operations in Gaza, echoes those thoughts. He welcomed the Israeli move but said: "It needs to be translated into action."

Many here will be looking to see, not just if more food goods are allowed in, but also whether materials will be allowed in to help private industry, devastated by the blockade, rebuild.

Unemployment runs at 40% and private industry has suffered greatly under the blockade. And, the fact remains that many Gazans feel they are living in a prison, with very few able to leave the territory because of Israel's strict control of the border, which it says is necessary for security.

1100 GMT: WYRE DAVIES, ISRAEL-GAZA BORDER

At Kerem Shalom, the main goods crossing on Israel's southern border with Gaza, a steady stream of trucks carrying foodstuffs and basic medical supplies make their way in.

They slowly trundle down a dusty track before being unloaded in a secure compound, checked by Israeli border staff to make sure there are no weapons or proscribed goods, then loaded again onto Palestinian trucks and sent into Gaza.

This procession of about 500 trucks a week is one reason why Israel says there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

The UN and other agencies disagree - they say that at least five times as much traffic needs to pass through Kerem Shalom and other crossings, if this is to represent a genuine change in Israel's policy towards Gaza, and perhaps an acknowledgement that the blockade hasn't worked and has, as some international bodies say, been counter-productive.

Moreover, says the UN, the range of goods being allowed in must increase - not just the milk powder, sugar and nappies that we've seen going in today but hitherto proscribed items like steel, cement and other raw materials to aid Gaza's crippled economy.

0900 GMT: TIM FRANKS, JERUSALEM

The easing of the blockade has been trailed as an extensive shift of Israeli policy. The key now will be just how far and how fast these measures take place.

The fact that it took Israel's security cabinet a second day of deliberations to produce this statement suggests there is still scepticism among some senior ministers about the wisdom of easing the blockade.

Will the system now move to a simple, short blacklist of what the Israelis will not allow in, as opposed to the current, privately held list of what is approved? How quickly will goods be allowed through after inspections?

How fast, in particular, will potentially dual-use items - in other words, construction materials - be waved across the border, for UN building projects?

In the past, senior UN officials have raged in
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14   NEXT



 Latest
 News 		  Most
 Read 		  Most
 Commented		  Hot
 Topics