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Subject: Worse than pirates...
free_man 12 5/31/2010 8:55:33 AM

How is it possible that a bunch of civilians using "steel rods and knives" could overwhelm Israeli Commandos to the point where they need to use deadly force, killing more than 10 people? Even if a few handguns were taken from the commandos in the tussle, that's not a reason for 10+ to die. These are supposed to be world-class marksmen who, besides never allowing their sidearm to be taken by civies, should be able to deal with the situation without leaving nearly 100 dead and injured. Maybe they need to go to the Somalia School of Piracy to learn how to take over a ship without killing and injuring almost all on board. Unless we learn about some stashed AK's on board, which might not even be believed if true, the house may be brought down on Israel. 1. Turkey will cut of diplo relations 2. EU will enforce boycott on Settler/Israeli goods 3. Obama will not stop UN from dastardly sanctions or worse 4. Israel/Egypt may have to allow Gaza to be fully open, enabling them to arm to the teeth and becoming an open terrorist state 5. start of a third Intifada 6. lead to major increase in both orchestrated and solo acts of terror inside Israel proper 7. lead to next full-scale (Syria/Hezbo/Iran/Gaza) war soon, without strong interntational support for Israel Not looking good at all...

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FJV Not wanting to see 6/7/2010 1:33:57 PM

Which party in the Israel / Palestine conflict has made the biggest gain in territory the last 20 years?

What does that say about the effectiveness of the strategies Israel has been using?

The wrong guys are winning this one, because we are not honest in answering these 2 questions.

We rather blame "European antisemitism" *1) than deal with what we do not want to face.

*1) Let's not forget that on multiple occasions the US has pushed Israel's interests aside, because it was not convenient for US interests. For instance Israel just had sit there and take Saddam's scud attacks during the 1st Gulf war and wasn't allowed to strike back.

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Ezekiel Darth-y and his vanity 6/7/2010 1:44:29 PM

Talk about pedantic intellects...I don't know you, I don't pretend to know you. What I wrote was an attack on the uber pragmatism you peddle...it is school of political science I am more then acquainted with. If my attack on your idea's are too brazen for you, that I will nto apologize for. I mean no offense to you personally only argue stridently against your rigid pragmatism and a clear lack of morality and justice in your approach toward Israel.

A name on a forum should not be the basis of insult unless i start using expletives, other than that, its time for you to get a bit of thicker skin. My intellect infuses my passions and never the other way, your personalizing of the interchange reveals more then a pedantic sensibility but a desire to deflect from the conclusions I have made on your conception of power, interests and morality.

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YelliChink 6/7/2010 1:53:37 PM

I must admit, I was thinking in terms of Time's current editorial views rather than what they used to think. My bad. Back in 1939, they were not the mindless Progressives they are now.

If that were to be the standard, then we all know who should have beeen given the title in 2001.

Nevermind about that. I think that it is very clear whom should be given the title in 2010: Ahmadinejad.

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YelliChink 6/7/2010 1:55:57 PM

Hamas refuses to receive humanitarian material delivered by not-really-for-Freedom Flotilla.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3901662,00.html

Hamas refuses to allow aid supplies into Gaza

Goods brought by flotilla pile up in army warehouses because Hamas rejects their entrance by land

Hanan Greenberg

Published:

06.07.10, 19:05 / Israel News

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Despite international criticism against Israel following a calamitous IDF raid on an aid flotilla to Gaza, it appeared Monday that Hamas was the one preventing the goods brought by the flotilla from entering the Strip.

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Wicked Chinchilla 6/7/2010 2:04:32 PM

Which party in the Israel / Palestine conflict has made the biggest gain in territory the last 20 years?

What does that say about the effectiveness of the strategies Israel has been using?

The wrong guys are winning this one, because we are not honest in answering these 2 questions.

We rather blame "European antisemitism" *1) than deal with what we do not want to face.

True, that did happen in the first Gulf War but it is somewhat of a myopic view. The reason why the U.S. reigned in Israel from retaliating is because of the presence of other Arab Nations in the Coalition. Had Israel retaliated those nations would have immediately withdrawn. Now, in the case of actual forces thats not such a big deal but considering we were there because Saudi Arabia was nervous that Saddam was going to come packing down south and it becomes more troublesome. Prior to 1990 we did not have permanent bases in Saudi. We were invited. Without the Arab nations then not only are we no longer welcome in Saudi, but we no longer would then have truly secure flanks either. You throw in the rescinding of overflight routes and things get awfully complicated quickly.

You also have to examine the situation objectively from the perspective of the time without using hindsight. The most optimistic casualty estimates for the U.S. were in the tens of thousands. Not one single person predicted the absolute victory of the coalition over Iraq. The military reality at the time was that this was going to be a nasty little campaign and every little contribution helped.

Looking at the cost/benefit of an Israeli retaliation vs. actual history and you can see why Israel decided to listen to reason in that case. Sure, it would have felt good for them to retaliate but it would have accomplished very limited goals militarily and resulted in a much more complicated political situation and (probably) battle plan.

A second point on that same topic would be this: why is it a bad thing that U.S. National Interest is a higher priority than Israeli National Interest to the U.S.? The U.S. is absolutely supposed to look after itself first, then its friends. In most cases the two coincide. I think in this current case it also coincides. The obvious move for Israel was to do what it did. It cost them far more in political capital to perform the raid than it gained them. In actual fact they delivered the full load of humanitarian supplies days later so the gain was very very small for an extreme amount of public outcry.

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Wicked Chinchilla 6/7/2010 2:09:39 PM

Hamas refuses to receive humanitarian material delivered by not-really-for-Freedom Flotilla.

link

Hamas refuses to allow aid supplies into Gaza

Goods brought by flotilla pile up in army warehouses because Hamas rejects their entrance by land

Hanan Greenberg

Published:

06.07.10, 19:05 / Israel News

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UL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 16; padding-right:0;}
OL{margin-bottom:0;margin-top:0;margin-right: 32; padding-right:0;}
H3.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;margin-top:0px;}
P.pHeader {margin-bottom:3px;COLOR: #192862;font-size: 16px;font-weight: bold;}

Ok, thats hilarious. Beat my post by this | | much and you invalidate one of my facts. Ah well, Israel tried to deliver it over the weekend anyway. Dollar says the Pali's will release a statement in a couple days that they sorely needed that aid and the big bad Israeli's should have given it to them...

I still think it wasn't in her own best interest to make the raid, but now because its supremely obvious the aid convoy was there as bait pure and simple since they won't even accept the supplies.

Darn you yellichink! You just had to shoot a hole in my argument above eh?

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DarthAmerica 6/7/2010 3:46:49 PM

Ezekiel,

It's not an issue of thick skin it's simple a practical matter. If we maintain a certain amount of ediquate during our disagreements there will be less chance of going off topic and into personal matters. This has happened before with other posters as you are no doubt aware.

Now with regard to my alleged "lack or morality and justice", rubbish. I stated up front that I did not with to choose sides. I'm doing that because I want to remain objective and I happen to disagree with what Israel is doing in Gaza. I think the Israeli gorvenrment is being as immoral as any Palestinian terror organization. THATS MY PERSONAL OPINION and it is based on facts and also an understanding of the interest of all parties involved. By staying away from that I am attemting to be as objective as possible.

-DA

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Ezekiel Darth-y and his vanity 6/7/2010 5:32:39 PM

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jastayme3 6/7/2010 5:43:56 PM

Israel will pay a heavy price for this.

-DA

Is that so true? I first heard of it from pro-israel collumnists. Indeed pro-israel sources are all over it. It's almost as if a new strategy of pre-emptive propaganda strikes was being introduced. If so, it's nice to know that someone is attending to that front.

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PlatypusMaximus Truth Torpedo 6/9/2010 11:14:45 AM

From:

Ethel C. Fenig - americanthinker.com - June 09, 2010

Let's see how Turkey welcomes a 'reverse freedom flotilla' for the Kurds

Hey there all you starry eyed humanitarians, do gooders, peace activists, liberal religious, anti Israel, anti Jewish haters and other useful idiots! Do you want to help a small beleaguered minority group of Muslims in the Mideast fighting for a state of its own against a larger, more well equipped army that is occupying their land? You do? Well, have I got a flotilla for you! Several actually!

Inspired by the fascist flotilla that declared war on Israel and Israel's blockade of terrorist weapons to Gaza, a group of Israeli students are planning a reverse, genuine freedom flotilla filled with vital aid and no weapons, sailing towards...Turkey.

Abe Selig of the Jerusalem Post talks to the young students and what they plan to do.

One plan is to sail to Turkey to deliver desperately needed aid to the Kurds who are fighting to establish an independent state of Kurdistan on land occupied by Turkey. The Israelis also would like to help Christian Armenians whose ancient enemy, Turkey once again, is also blockading their area via Azerbaijan. The Israeli group would also like to peacefully greet any future fascist flotillas sailing to well equipped, well supplied Gaza at sea, explain their concerns and redirect them to areas which desperately need the aid. Israel regularly allows food and medicine into Gaza but the freely elected and brutally corrupt Hamas government distributes it, usually denying supplies to its many enemies.

According to Boaz Torporovsky, the student leader in charge

"Hundreds of people have volunteered for the flotilla, and many more are contacting us all the time for ways they can help.
"Our plan is to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance to the Kurds of Turkey, who by the way outnumber Israelis and Palestinians combined," he said.
"And to show that Turkey has its own issues when it comes to the treatment of its minorities, which they should consider before criticizing us."

Other Israelis are planning more flotillas, including one to Cyprus.

And perhaps in the future there will be other freedom flotillas to aid the Africans in Sudan and elsewhere being slaughtered by Muslims and then on to North Korea, whose megalomaniac ruler is starving his own people while once again threatening his neighbors in South Korea, after an unprovoked attack on a South Korean vessel that killed 36 sailors.All aboard!

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