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Subject: Nu'a, nu'a, nu'a!
Shirrush    1/3/2009 1:30:25 PM
T'seems that the ground ops have started about one hour ago, in a rather classical manner with a heavy artillery preparation. Good hunting and safe return to our troops!
 
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Hugo       1/9/2009 5:39:36 PM










If you were to suggest transferring the whole of Israel to the Palestinians AND hand them the keys to the bank, I think they would refuse on the grounds that this would be surrendering to a Zionist conspiracy. Out sheer pig-headedness, the other side would never agree to anything Israel suggest, partly because that would mean shaking hands - and co-operating - with the "Zionists". That, in radical Islam, is equivalent to eating bacon and eggs for Shabbat breakfast if you are an orthodox Jew.







 







During the first  intifada, an IDF officer was quoted as saying that if we wants to kill a Palestinian, all he has to do is walk up to him in the street and shake his hand.










  Are you responding to me Battar?  If so I am not suggesting you co-operate or acquise to anyone.  I am saying Israel needs to declare its borders and then make a commitment to defending them whatever they may be.  I would, were I an Israeli leader, leaver them something to work with because it is likely in your long term best intersts.  But the idea of Israel slowly but certainly surrendering a relative technological military advantage (their rockets becoming ever more sophisticated and thus the impact of terror) and most certainly a demographic advantage within the old mandate frontiers whilst at the same time expecting things to get better in the long run is, in my strong view, a hopeless outlook. 



 



Israel's friends aren't becoming any larger in number and you've become heavily reliant diplomatically on the United States and to a far lesser extent Germany.  The former has become less influential in your region and your primary enemy (in my view), Iran, has become far stronger in the last decade with that trend having potential to continue. 






 



I think you need to settle things whilst Israel is comparatively strong and how many more years/decades need to go by before it is realized that dimplomatic efforts are destined to fail.  This strength needs to be leveraged to forge long-term solutions in-line with Israel's long term strategic objectives which must include a clear and undisputable delineation of borders.







Long-term solutions are impossible. This isn't Europe where they could just start a war and stop it according to the monarchs will. The only "long-term" solution is to ethnic cleanse Palestine which I doubt you are advocating.

That being the case, the solution is really to become a little bit harder and have more of a frontier outlook. Assume war to be a constant part of life, like crime. Perhaps distasteful, but if you wish to live there, you have to take war for granted. Not that Israelis are "soft"(and yes I know the old pun about prickly on the outside and sweet inside), but that they are perhaps(like Americans) to hopeful for their own good.





  I don't think the Israeli's have the stomache for continual war, which modern nation does?  As for her opponents, that is another matter indeed they seem to thrive in misery. 
 
I'm suggesting that Israel bolster Israel which will require her to decide on some finality as regards her borders and then, if necessary, engage in population transfer with compensation as previously mentioned.  If those borders are chosen imprudently then she does herself no favours.  If chosen wisely then she needs to follow that up with population transfers if necessary with the accompanying compensation to Arabs leaving Israel.
 
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jastayme3       1/14/2009 8:12:46 PM






















If you were to suggest transferring the whole of Israel to the Palestinians AND hand them the keys to the bank, I think they would refuse on the grounds that this would be surrendering to a Zionist conspiracy. Out sheer pig-headedness, the other side would never agree to anything Israel suggest, partly because that would mean shaking hands - and co-operating - with the "Zionists". That, in radical Islam, is equivalent to eating bacon and eggs for Shabbat breakfast if you are an orthodox Jew.















 















During the first  intifada, an IDF officer was quoted as saying that if we wants to kill a Palestinian, all he has to do is walk up to him in the street and shake his hand.






















  Are you responding to me Battar?  If so I am not suggesting you co-operate or acquise to anyone.  I am saying Israel needs to declare its borders and then make a commitment to defending them whatever they may be.  I would, were I an Israeli leader, leaver them something to work with because it is likely in your long term best intersts.  But the idea of Israel slowly but certainly surrendering a relative technological military advantage (their rockets becoming ever more sophisticated and thus the impact of terror) and most certainly a demographic advantage within the old mandate frontiers whilst at the same time expecting things to get better in the long run is, in my strong view, a hopeless outlook. 







 







Israel's friends aren't becoming any larger in number and you've become heavily reliant diplomatically on the United States and to a far lesser extent Germany.  The former has become less influential in your region and your primary enemy (in my view), Iran, has become far stronger in the last decade with that trend having potential to continue. 














 







I think you need to settle things whilst Israel is comparatively strong and how many more years/decades need to go by before it is realized that dimplomatic efforts are destined to fail.  This strength needs to be leveraged to forge long-term solutions in-line with Israel's long term strategic objectives which must include a clear and undisputable delineation of borders.

















Long-term solutions are impossible. This isn't Europe where they could just start a war and stop it according to the monarchs will. The only "long-term" solution is to ethnic cleanse Palestine which I doubt you are advocating.



That being the case, the solution is really to become a little bit harder and have more of a frontier outlook. Assume war to be a constant part of life, like crime. Perhaps distasteful, but if you wish to live there, you have to take war for granted. Not that Israelis are "soft"(and yes I know the old pun about prickly on the outside and sweet inside), but that they are perhaps(like Americans) to hopeful for their own good.














  I don't think the Israeli's have the stomache for continual war, which modern nation does?  As for her opponents, that is another matter indeed they seem to thrive in misery. 

 

I'm suggesting that Israel bolster Israel which will require her to decide on some finality as regards her borders and then, if necessary, engage in population transfer with compensation as previously mentioned.  If those borders are chosen impr
 
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