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Subject: Third Intifada just starting.
Shirrush    10/9/2008 3:08:58 PM
And it's inside Israel.
 
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Shirrush       10/12/2008 8:19:30 AM
What is happening in 'Acco has stopped being an isolated incident since it's been going on for 4 days already. According to the article quoted by Ezekiel, firearms are out in the streets, and firing. Sooner or later, a bullet will hit, and somebody will die. Then, hell breaks loose!

Ezekiel, do you think that if the Arabs weren't full citizens and were relegated to a less-than-equal status, they wouldn't be rioting? Is this what you mean by "Jewish sovereignty"?
Revising eligibility to Israeli citizenship along ethnical or confessional lines would no doubt increase our international popularity to North Korean levels, and solve absolutely nothing.

As to the Knesset members, Arab or not, we could demand that they take an oath of allegiance to the State and its constitution, but first we'd need a constitution that, if it stipulates such a clause, is certain to be voted against by the same Arab MK's. Not that I care mind you, since these 14 Arab MK have never enabled or prevented any legislation: they're transparent, and they don't count for much. If the non-Jewish Israeli citizens really voted for them, there'd be 30 of them, but they don't!

 
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Ezekiel    Sovereignty   10/12/2008 4:21:07 PM

What is happening in 'Acco has stopped being an isolated incident since it's been going on for 4 days already. According to the article quoted by Ezekiel, firearms are out in the streets, and firing. Sooner or later, a bullet will hit, and somebody will die. Then, hell breaks loose!




Ezekiel, do you think that if the Arabs weren't full citizens and were relegated to a less-than-equal status, they wouldn't be rioting? Is this what you mean by "Jewish sovereignty"?

Revising eligibility to Israeli citizenship along ethnical or confessional lines would no doubt increase our international popularity to North Korean levels, and solve absolutely nothing.




As to the Knesset members, Arab or not, we could demand that they take an oath of allegiance to the State and its constitution, but first we'd need a constitution that, if it stipulates such a clause, is certain to be voted against by the same Arab MK's. Not that I care mind you, since these 14 Arab MK have never enabled or prevented any legislation: they're transparent, and they don't count for much. If the non-Jewish Israeli citizens really voted for them, there'd be 30 of them, but they don't!




I applaud you for at least attempting a counter weight to my argument...now that is the beginning of a dialogue.
 
I appreciate the points you make though they are general and non descript. Nevertheless you made some relevant issues to a Jewish re-determination to construct a meaningful concept of Jewish political membership within the Jewish State. As for me telling you what to believe this is far from the case, i recognize western thought, I recognize its strengths, but because I recognize certain weaknesses within it (especially when awkwardly applied to the Jewish context)  doesn't make me a denier. That line of thinking is facile and dogmatic. The point is... I ingest these philosophies, I deliberate the various schools of thought and then use judgement (hopefully wisely) to determine a prudent course in a particular circumstance. What I called for was Jewish reconciliation and respectful compromise in order to make Jewish self determination an authentic, cogent and progressive narrative. The Jewish State is still unformed, and thus vulnerable. This vulnerability is most clearly observed in Akko, where you have 20% of Israel's population (the number required tfor a fifth column) that  have any sort of fidelity for the Jewish national cause. This shear number and the arab communities growing aggression points to a very needed solution.
 
Your points:
 
1) if Arab status were changed this would not solve the situation, you would still have an aggressive group within your midst.
 
First this doesn't discuss the most precient issue which is today that Israel has a voting public that can lawfully vote the Jewish State out of existence. The motive is established, all that is missing is time. Tick, tick, tick.
 
The value of providing a cogent institution for political membership is far more important in the longterm, then having a quisling state. I will also affirm that by correctly defining roles in a society will actually alleviate the frustration. The idea that Israel can buy Arabs loyalty, how many times have I heard "they live better hear then in any of their 23 states." This is degrading and borderline racist, to think that his loyalty can be bought. The Arab is proud. By providing him an Iron wall of culture(as I titled my first post) will allow him to realize that his/her community is not part of a Jewish state because of blood, but b/c they have very different values and beliefs. Being residents and not citizens may provide them the stability to contribute to the Jewish surrogate.
 
Just because the Arabs wouldn't have national rights doesn't mean they do not have rights at all. Not having national rights does not preclude not have municipal representation, it does not strip them of their personal rights that an enlightened democracy would of course protect (Habeaus Corpus, Privacy, welfare). Enjoying the amenities of a strong and united Jewish state without having to sacrifice for its upkeep may actually be an attractive circumstance.
 
2) Your second point added up to severe world condemnation.
 
This again does not resolve the greater issue of state solvency. Solving the basic issue of a sovereign polity, answering an essential question... who can be part of it? who is eligible to be a trustee
 
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Shirrush    Okay, Ezekiel!   10/15/2008 2:29:12 PM
You are still not making any point on what needs to be done, nor are you giving any description of what that Jewish sovereignty of yours would look like. I understand you certainly have ideas, but you are still using too many words in order to fail to expose them clearly.
If you want to prophesize, please kindly haul ass o'er here where you'll be heard. Since we have no King, there are positions open for Prophets, and the more the better. You have correctly noted that the Jewish nation-state is still a work in progress. Your job is to contribute to its shaping, that's what Prophets do, even when they're likely to be rewarded with a couple of girders and three large carpenter's nails only!
 
In the meantime, ground-level diplomacy and almost-correct police work have succeeded in extinguishing the 'Acco fires, until the next time. The Arab merchants of the old city of 'Acco have seen their tourism-dependent business dwindle to zilch, and have also moved swiftly to rein in their young ones.
The Jews, on their part, never seethe for long. They're quick to heat up, but they also cool rather fast, the more if there's more pressing business to attend to, such as surviving in this harsh, poor and employment-deprived environment of theirs. I'm still surprised that the Moslem narco-ghettos of Ramleh-Lod and Rahat did not flare up in sympathy though. I guess one Arab fatality in the riots, such as happened in Oct. 2000, would have sufficed to lit a big conflagration. The fuze is off for now, but the keg is still there.

 
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battar    Never to Malice   10/17/2008 6:08:57 PM
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
 
Eye witness reports say that most of the trouble in Acco was caused, and encouraged, by right-wing Jewish religious youths.
Apparently there is a community of them there, egged on by an ultra-right wing (read: facist) Yeshiva teacher/rabbi. Of course, driving into a Jewish neighbourhood on Atonement day isn't the mark of intelligence - its about as stupid as setting up a bar in the forecourt of a mosque - but if you live in a mixed town like Acco, you can't expect 1/3 of the population to dance to your tunes all the time. It isn't Yom Kippur for them.
 
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Shirrush       10/18/2008 8:31:34 AM

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
 
Eye witness reports say that most of the trouble in Acco was caused, and encouraged, by right-wing Jewish religious youths.

Apparently there is a community of them there, egged on by an ultra-right wing (read: facist) Yeshiva teacher/rabbi. Of course, driving into a Jewish neighbourhood on Atonement day isn't the mark of intelligence - its about as stupid as setting up a bar in the forecourt of a mosque - but if you live in a mixed town like Acco, you can't expect 1/3 of the population to dance to your tunes all the time. It isn't Yom Kippur for them.

No. Moral equivalence again! "They're all equal in stupidity; I'm smarter". You really need an edema or something to rid you of that arrogant blindness of yours. 
No right-wing Jewish a-hole went on rampage with axes and knives and destroyed Arab property on Kippur night.
The prize for stupidity rightly belongs to the police, who failed to do anything against the Arab mob on the first night, thereby making Israel, previously known as the Jewish State, another of these countries where Jews need to be afraid of their neighbors on certain nights. They were, however, more than eager to repress the Jewish indignation on the following days with adequate brutality. None of the Arab pogromchiks were arrested AFAIK, although it is good to know that they nabbed the Jewish arsonists.
The second prize would go to the Barukh Marzel foaming-at-the-mouth racist cretin crowd, for their timely, expected, and nonetheless outstanding depravity, and that's where I sorta agree with you.
 
I think Caroline Glick's analysis is worth reading. She's usually very perceptive and articulate, 'xept when she's doing the sales pitch for the Bibi.
 
 
 
 
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battar    The enemy is us too.   10/19/2008 3:47:46 PM
Shirrush,
                You are not making sense with this "moral equivalency" stuff. I'm not sure I understand what moral equivalence is.
If I were to drive my big comfy Peugeot 406 into Bnei Brak on a Friday night with the windows open and Pink Floyd in the CD I'd probably get lynched (aside from proving how incredibly stupid I am).  I would get lynched not because I am an Arab (Surprise! I'm not an Arab) and not because Bnei Brak belong by divine order to the orthodox Jews, but simply because the people doing the lynching are a bunch of mindless indoctrinated bigots, who cannot find any respect for anyone who doesn't think exactly like them.
What would have happened if the Jewish residents of Acco had simply ignored the Arab driver? He would soon have got bored with being an idiot and gone home , and that would be the end of it. After all, he didn't break any law did he? There is no law says you can't drive your car and listen to music on Yom Kippur - or Friday night in Bnei Brak.
 
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Shirrush       10/19/2008 9:05:27 PM

Shirrush,

                You are not making sense with this "moral equivalency" stuff. I'm not sure I understand what moral equivalence is.

If I were to drive my big comfy Peugeot 406 into Bnei Brak on a Friday night with the windows open and Pink Floyd in the CD I'd probably get lynched (aside from proving how incredibly stupid I am).  I would get lynched not because I am an Arab (Surprise! I'm not an Arab) and not because Bnei Brak belong by divine order to the orthodox Jews, but simply because the people doing the lynching are a bunch of mindless indoctrinated bigots, who cannot find any respect for anyone who doesn't think exactly like them.

What would have happened if the Jewish residents of Acco had simply ignored the Arab driver? He would soon have got bored with being an idiot and gone home , and that would be the end of it. After all, he didn't break any law did he? There is no law says you can't drive your car and listen to music on Yom Kippur - or Friday night in Bnei Brak.

Well, maybe you're a little slow my friend, but I would recommend that you look into what happened on the first night. For me, it is a sufficient case to advocate burning everything and everyone in the Arab part of 'Acco as retaliation, but you probably have a higher threshold than I have, requiring e.g. watching your own daughter being raped and disemboweled in front of your eyes to want do something about Muslim pogroms.
I remember the Damascus blood libel, the Fostat pogrom, Esfahan, Fez, Baghdad 1945 and 1952, and of course Hebron 1929, and I'm a bit concerned that you don't.
 
 
 

 
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battar    Wasp   10/20/2008 4:08:24 PM
If you have a wasps nest in your back yard, you don't spend your free time poking it with a stick.
If you live in a town with a large Arab community, you don't look for opportunities to start trouble.
And in this country, Jews do worse things to other Jews than Israeli Arabs do.
 
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Sambation    Tiptoe through history   10/22/2008 8:29:12 PM
So, Battar, what is your recommendation? Don't disturb the wasp nest. Don't approach it. Don't even call the exterminator, now matter how many times your kids get stung.
 
What does this remind me of...? Oh yes, all of Jewish history. So, back to the Diaspora in our own country. Bravo, excellent. We can elect Ha'aretz to be prime minister and read Gideon Levy's column on the way to the gas, ladies and gents.
 
Shirrush has a point. There is no such thing as isolated Arab-Muslim violence. It is by definition cohesive, tending towards conflagration. It has the appearance of spontaneity but is generally well-organized, funded, and media-mindful. Think about the Danish Muhammad cartoon incidents (or the October 2000 riots, or either intifada, or the recurring riots in Aleppo, if you want to deal pre-Israel).

When he speaks about moral equivalence he means the automatic, knee-jerkish tendency to say both sides are equally right or wrong, no matter what actually happened. It's this kind of paralogistic logic that has gotten Israel into this absurdist mess. It's why we have an occupation; why Jerusalem is on the chopping block; why we can't defeat fairly predictable terror patterns; why Hizbullah still exists, etc, etc: presumption of guilt. Never one of the better qualities of the Jewish people.
 
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Ezekiel       10/30/2008 9:45:41 AM

You are still not making any point on what needs to be done, nor are you giving any description of what that Jewish sovereignty of yours would look like. I understand you certainly have ideas, but you are still using too many words in order to fail to expose them clearly.


If you want to prophesize, please kindly haul ass o'er here where you'll be heard. Since we have no King, there are positions open for Prophets, and the more the better. You have correctly noted that the Jewish nation-state is still a work in progress. Your job is to contribute to its shaping, that's what Prophets do, even when they're likely to be rewarded with a couple of girders and three large carpenter's nails only!


 

In the meantime, ground-level diplomacy and almost-correct police work have succeeded in extinguishing the 'Acco fires, until the next time. The Arab merchants of the old city of 'Acco have seen their tourism-dependent business dwindle to zilch, and have also moved swiftly to rein in their young ones.

The Jews, on their part, never seethe for long. They're quick to heat up, but they also cool rather fast, the more if there's more pressing business to attend to, such as surviving in this harsh, poor and employment-deprived environment of theirs. I'm still surprised that the Moslem narco-ghettos of Ramleh-Lod and Rahat did not flare up in sympathy though. I guess one Arab fatality in the riots, such as happened in Oct. 2000, would have sufficed to lit a big conflagration. The fuze is off for now, but the keg is still there.





I actually went point by point in my response to you. I am no prophet, and it doesn't take one to see the glaring problem of political membership within jewish sovereignty. I can't give you specifics of what sort of jewish political initiation would be b/c there is no people like the Jews, so by definition it would be unique. But I did list a criteria of 3 ingredients in such a filtering mechanism of political membership within israel
 
1. It must be consequential -  Some oversimplified generic loyalty test that has no real meanings in it, will not do!
 
2. It has to be substantive - It must be based values and traditions and not on race or blood.
 
3. It must be authentic - It must represent the Jewish people and it particularistic Jewish values (not hellinistic/european values)
 
The status quo is no longer tenable, b/c the Arab Israeli is getting larger in number and more belligerent in temprament. The longer the Jewish majority waits the harder it will be to solve. If a generation of Israeli's know that there is a problem, why let it fester and aggregate more strength and leave it to the next generation to solve with greater difficulty.
 
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