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Subject: Israelian Navy and X MAS
luigi.delta    7/13/2008 3:21:59 AM
Digging out facts about the Italian Naval Special Forces, I have found a couple of solid sources which indicate that the Israelian naval commando force was created and trained by a former X MAS specialist, petty officer Fiorenzo Capriotti. By digging even more I found a book by Capriotti whose title is "A fascist to the Gerusalem Court", which confirmed the whole story. I would like to know if any Israelian on this forum can help me find any confirmation of this story by any Israelian source. I would be very grateful for any help.
 
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luigi.delta       7/20/2008 6:37:35 AM
Israel is simply not rich enough to be a naval power. Nor is it dependant enough on the sea. It is to bad in a way. To my  anglo-saxon mind navies are associated with adventure, technology, travel, pioneering and making the seas bloom(so to speak), and aesthetically pleasing warships while armies have a distasteful association with unchecked autocracy or even barracks-states. Not to mention, navies fight nature as well as man which European style armies usually are not made to do. Nevertheless not everyone can be a naval power. Russia cannot be, and Germany could not be. And Israel cannot be and need not be. Historically Israel's naval history was as an arm of the secret service rather then as a military component. That is for such things as smuggling refugees or weapons. Or countering same. Or carrying out covert ops. The most interesting thing about Israel's navy is being involved in the first surface-to-surface missile battles. And the main purpose of todays Israeli navy is(besides boomers) allowing the interception of smugglers without actually sinking them.


In other words Israel's navy cannot be a "strategic arm". Or more precisely it cannot be an operational arm. Israel is simply not likely to be in a war in which sea power would be decisive. Nor does it have the resources to build a navy.


One possible use for the Israeli navy, would be to remodel it as an amphibious force. The ability to land brigade strength or more forces on an enemy coast would be a powerful addition. Remember Inchon.


As for using the Italian Navy as advisors, there is no particular reason why Italians would know more then Israelis. The same strategy textbooks are open to all and the Italian navy had mixed performance in the last major naval war. The only powers who have used seapower as a strategic arm recently are US, Britain, and Russia, and Russia is a sea-denying navy. Italy can tell how to administer a navy though. But US can do that too.


To put it bluntly, don't have Kaiser Bill fantasies. Israel is not a naval power and trying to be would require to much investment.


 

 

 

I make an appeal to your anglo-saxon mind to invite you to consider that navies decision makers don't refer to the present situation when they elaborate their planning, but they refer to the possible future situations.
Israel is a county not very rich in natural resources and almost all its import comes from the sea. It can't be considered a continental power in pure georstrategical terms, even though it has acted like one so far.
Israel has the navy that it needs to have...for now. It is a beautifully crafted and decently balanced fleet, which fullfils, at present, all the strategic maritime needings of the country. In the present situation in the Mediterranean Sea, the navies which would potentially be hostile are not stronger than their Israelian counterpart, and among the major navies operating in that sea, there is none that in the present international situation that can be classified hostile to the Israelian interests....again...for now. 
Of course is not a given that the present situation will stand forever, and may be that in the future Israel will be in need to redefine the role and the scope of its sea combat force. Personally I don't think - but I could be wrong here, because this is just an opinion and I don't have anything to back it up - that Israel would have any difficulties to rethink or to reshape its naval war machine as a complete and balanced medium sized blue navy in case of necessity. It would sure take sometime, since no navy is created overnight and the role of the major strategic intellectuals in a country is exactly that one of contributing to forsee the future scenarios in time. With your anglo-saxon mindset I am sure you know that these "major intellectuals" come often from navies more than any other armed forces.
As for the Italian navy assisting Israel, the scope of this thread was in truth limited to some historical evidence that Italy contributed to the foundation of the Israelian Naval special forces, which is of course a much more limited task than shaping the strategic stance of the entire armed force. By the way I am at present investigating on the same kind of contribution give to the Italians to the creation of the US Naval special forces. 
 
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battar    Pale blue    7/20/2008 3:26:43 PM
So, some posters are casting doubts on the effectiveness of the Israeli Navy. I would point out that the Israel Navy is a littoral force, and its tasks include defending the ports and coasts, blockading neighbouring enemy ports, and providing stand-off weapon platforms against neighbouring coasts.  For these tasks, they are well equipped. Israel does not need long range ships because it doesn't take the fight far away. It doesn't need elaborate AA because it operates within range of land based aircraft. It doesn't need strategic weapons becasue the enemys strategic targets are inland and in range of the air-force. It doesn't need the capability to take out the enemy aircraft carriers because the enemy doesn't have any. Yes the air-force gets all the glory, but the cap badges in the Navy are gold colored, not silver. They serve up a decent lunch, too.
The US and NATO navies are blue-water forces, designed to take the fight to a distant enemy. The U.S navy doesn't have any purpose designed vessels for armed coastal defence because the thinking is that an enemy naval force will never be engaged close to the shore. (terrorist speedboats can be dealt with by the coast-guard - unless the liberal left decides that preventing terrorists from blowing up speedboats is denying them freedom of expression).
 
Yes, in the second world war the Italian navy's main task was to provide target practice for the Fleet air arm, but the Italian naval commandoes did punch some embarrasing holes in Her Majesty's Ships in the Med. 
 
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Shirrush    Blue-brown   7/20/2008 5:53:31 PM

So, some posters are casting doubts on the effectiveness of the Israeli Navy. I would point out that the Israel Navy is a littoral force, and its tasks include defending the ports and coasts, blockading neighbouring enemy ports, and providing stand-off weapon platforms against neighbouring coasts.  For these tasks, they are well equipped. Israel does not need long range ships because it doesn't take the fight far away. It doesn't need elaborate AA because it operates within range of land based aircraft. It doesn't need strategic weapons becasue the enemys strategic targets are inland and in range of the air-force. It doesn't need the capability to take out the enemy aircraft carriers because the enemy doesn't have any. Yes the air-force gets all the glory, but the cap badges in the Navy are gold colored, not silver. They serve up a decent lunch, too.
Battar, I wasn't casting doubt, only stating known facts. The Israeli Navy screwed up bigtime in and immediately after the Six-Days war against the Egyptian Navy, almost losing a sub and its crew to an antiquated frigate that should have gone down, and earning the dubious glory of being the first Navy in the World to lose a major ship to anti-ship missiles, and I'm not even mentioning the botched attack against a certain spy vessel. It did a much better job in 1973, but didn't get much opportunities to prove its mettle since then, until the major balls-up of July 2006, when it became clear that it wasn't running that tight a ship...
 
I do agree that our Navy is doing great in the Coast Guard role, and I am indeed grateful to the boys in the Dvora/Dabur/Shaldag puke-tubs and the the googly-girls behind their scopes on shore, for being able to safely stroll on our Mediterranean beaches.
Where I disagree with you is the strategic role. Putting some assets at sea does make sense, and a sophisticated air defense system can be counted as one of them. The present ground-based, semi-mobile Arrow batteries can be incapacitated or even taken out with a long range artillery attack of the sort the enemy is most certainly equipping for, whereas an air defense ship would be more nimble and harder to find. This is probably why we're hearing about this planned purchase of as many as four multi-purpose, heavily armed frigates based on the US LCS design.
In this context, being able to benefit from the experience of a Mediterranean blue-water Navy such as the Italian one, would be useful to train our crews to an acceptable proficiency level on how to operate ships larger than corvettes, which would be a totally new experience for the Israeli Navy.
 
 
 
 
have gone down
 
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jastayme3       7/21/2008 2:42:42 AM

So, some posters are casting doubts on the effectiveness of the Israeli Navy. I would point out that the Israel Navy is a littoral force, and its tasks include defending the ports and coasts, blockading neighbouring enemy ports, and providing stand-off weapon platforms against neighbouring coasts.  For these tasks, they are well equipped. Israel does not need long range ships because it doesn't take the fight far away. It doesn't need elaborate AA because it operates within range of land based aircraft. It doesn't need strategic weapons becasue the enemys strategic targets are inland and in range of the air-force. It doesn't need the capability to take out the enemy aircraft carriers because the enemy doesn't have any. Yes the air-force gets all the glory, but the cap badges in the Navy are gold colored, not silver. They serve up a decent lunch, too.

The US and NATO navies are blue-water forces, designed to take the fight to a distant enemy. The U.S navy doesn't have any purpose designed vessels for armed coastal defence because the thinking is that an enemy naval force will never be engaged close to the shore. (terrorist speedboats can be dealt with by the coast-guard - unless the liberal left decides that preventing terrorists from blowing up speedboats is denying them freedom of expression).

 

Yes, in the second world war the Italian navy's main task was to provide target practice for the Fleet air arm, but the Italian naval commandoes did punch some embarrasing holes in Her Majesty's Ships in the Med. 

I wasn't casting doubt on the effectiveness of the Israeli Navy, I was casting doubts on it's practicality.
And luigi, the "Anglo-saxon mind" thing  simply  meant that I liked the idea and regretted my rejection because of a cultural tradition of romanticizing navies, so the sarcasm is unnecessary. It is not meant to mean, "I know more about
navies then you because I might conceivably have had a fifth cousin twice removed who was at Leyte Gulf." I
did not say that American armchair admirals are necessarily more reliable then Italian armchair admirals so you need
not take it amiss.

 
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jastayme3       7/21/2008 2:56:33 AM

As far as protecting commerce goes, what would you be protecting it from? Does Israel have any
potential enemies that is a noted naval power?
 
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luigi.delta       7/21/2008 4:59:39 AM
jastayme3
 
I wasnt' trying to be sarcarstic at all, and all my apologies if I sounded so. If there is someone who has the outmost respect for the "Anglo-Saxon naval mind" that one is me.
 
You said "As far as protecting commerce goes, what would you be protecting it from? Does Israel have any potential enemies that is a noted naval power?" 

and I am happy to see that you agree with me on the point. Like I said in my previous post, Israel does not have any potential enemy among the major navies operating in the Mediterranean. But like I said in my previous post as well, situations might change, and it is the duty of the military brains of a country to be reasonably prepared to these changes. A couple of years ago, in Livorno, a huge Kriegspiel has been played - among many that year - under the hypotesis that some european navies would make a move to blockade Israeli commercial traffic in and out the Mediterranean Sea, before it arrived in the areas covered by the Israeli air forces. The result was disastrous for the Jewish country. of course this Kriegspiel had no political assumption wathsoever, it was just a pure operational "armchair admirals exercise".
 The exercice was conducted in a way to tactically avoid the massive intervention of the Israeli Air Force, whose tactical ability to cooperate with the Navy from the land is uncertiain, even though in the kriegspiel sometimes Israeli aircraft managed to reach some battle areas by means of extensive tanker usage. 

Like I already said, if Israel is ever intentioned to upgrade its navy, it will presumably choose their docrinal advisors from the same country that would supply the know how to build major surface combatants. I realistically think that advise could come more or less by any western navy. A German collaboration might be realistic to think about, since there is an already going on joint work on submarines. 

I hope I clarified 
luigi.delta 
 
 
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Shirrush    No shortage of potential for trouble here.   7/21/2008 5:15:29 AM
Actual enemies: none.
Having a strong naval component with land-attack capabilities and shore-battery immunity would, however, constitute a deterrent against Syria, which has much of its economy (e.g. refineries) concentrated on its coastal strip, and which depends on its sea-ports for much of its sustenance.
 
Potential enemies:
And, of course, the hereditary one, Greece.

 
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jastayme3       7/21/2008 2:23:47 PM

Actual enemies: none.

Having a strong naval component with land-attack capabilities and shore-battery immunity would, however, constitute a deterrent against Syria, which has much of its economy (e.g. refineries) concentrated on its coastal strip, and which depends on its sea-ports for much of its sustenance.


 

Potential enemies:




And, of course, the hereditary one, Greece.




Hereditary? Israel hasn't fought a war with Greece since Judah Maccabee.
And if Israel is ever in a a real war with Russia all it can do is pray and hope it does a Finland. Or else hope America
comes in if Israel is in a Samsonesque mood.
 Turkey is a more obvious point though. Turkey could conceivably be taken over by a Islamisist coup. That seems unlikly
to me but not unlikly enough not to leave the point out of account.
Actually, though the main operational use for an Israeli navy  would be as an amphibious arm. Which has been the most notable use
of Meditteranean Navies since Themistocles anyway. 
 

 
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jastayme3       7/21/2008 2:27:48 PM

jastayme3

 

I wasnt' trying to be sarcarstic at all, and all my apologies if I sounded so. If there is someone who has the outmost respect for the "Anglo-Saxon naval mind" that one is me.

 

You said "As far as protecting commerce goes, what would you be protecting it from? Does Israel have any potential enemies that is a noted naval power?" 



and I am happy to see that you agree with me on the point. Like I said in my previous post, Israel does not have any potential enemy among the major navies operating in the Mediterranean. But like I said in my previous post as well, situations might change, and it is the duty of the military brains of a country to be reasonably prepared to these changes. A couple of years ago, in Livorno, a huge Kriegspiel has been played - among many that year - under the hypotesis that some european navies would make a move to blockade Israeli commercial traffic in and out the Mediterranean Sea, before it arrived in the areas covered by the Israeli air forces. The result was disastrous for the Jewish country. of course this Kriegspiel had no political assumption wathsoever, it was just a pure operational "armchair admirals exercise".

 The exercice was conducted in a way to tactically avoid the massive intervention of the Israeli Air Force, whose tactical ability to cooperate with the Navy from the land is uncertiain, even though in the kriegspiel sometimes Israeli aircraft managed to reach some battle areas by means of extensive tanker usage. 



Like I already said, if Israel is ever intentioned to upgrade its navy, it will presumably choose their docrinal advisors from the same country that would supply the know how to build major surface combatants. I realistically think that advise could come more or less by any western navy. A German collaboration might be realistic to think about, since there is an already going on joint work on submarines. 



I hope I clarified 

luigi.delta 

 

Fine enough. A quarrel prevented by explanation and mutual goodwill. Mark the date down. A unique event
has happened. People have actually been reasonable to one another.

 
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battar    Big toys   7/21/2008 2:39:17 PM
I don't think the Israel navy really wants frigates. The logistics of building a maintenance base for a small number of complex platforms is one big nightmare.  You have to train - and keep - expert technical personnel, maintain a huge stock of spares, build a technical training program - and this for 2 or three ships. You would get a better return for your effort investing in a larger number of smaller ships. Same logistics spread over a more flexible asset. BUT - the U.S doesn't build missile boats or corvettes - they don't build anything smaller than a frigate. (Coast guard cutters are not suitable as missile carriers).  So a frigate is what you get.
 
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