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Subject: Solutions to the rocket attacks from Gaza
phalanx30    3/9/2008 1:57:45 AM
I have my own, its a bit radical but it would certainly work. What are some other possible choices? The solution I have come up with is to basically depopulate Gaza and make it part of Israel proper. Now I have no Idea how to get 1.5 million people out of a certain area but I'm sure it could be done. I realize their would be some resistance on the part of the Palestinians and especially Hezbollah, but I'm also sure that resistance could be dealt with as well as the fact that this depopulation would guarantee the security of Israeli citizens living near Gaza, at least in terms of the rocket attacks.
 
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kensohaski       4/25/2008 10:11:04 PM










Wouldn't it be cheaper to deport 6 million Israeli Jews to an unused state in the USA, Idaho perhaps, or Vermont?






 







Taking in 6 million Jews, judging historically, is a net gain for the nation receiving them.  (and once upon a time even Muslims figured that out)



Ergo, it's a LOT cheaper than moving Palestinians!



The Jewish people know what "stateless person" means and what happens to them. "Never again!" they declared.

The German Liner St Louis

In hell there is a special place reserved for some of the US State Department flacks responsible for that crime.

General information.

I have NO illusions.

Herald




I believe that you will find that the Department of Labor was responsible for immigration...  And it was loaded with anti-semites.. 
 
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Herald12345    State Department.   4/25/2008 10:43:56 PM
 
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historynut       4/26/2008 2:40:01 PM




Just a wild idea. They used balloons (with nets/wires hanging down) to hinder/stop low level attacks in WWII. Don't know how good they would be in a rocket attack but they were good in WWII. Since rockets are low level for most part balloons could be useful. Seeing as the rockets can not turn like a plane can it could work. It would be cheap to try and hard to defeat.



Use hot air balloons (with the hot air coming from a ground based station) with lots of cells makes it hard to shoot down. While it may not stop the attacks it would limit where the rockets could be fired from making counterfire easier.




Barrage balloons have never been physically effective, much less cost effective.

Besides, the rockets are being fired at maximum range, therefore ~45 degrees elevation, not low and flat, and will go to high for your balloons to block.

 

Lastly, could you supply a web link to a site where someone has used hot air from a ground based station to support a balloon.  I don't think it has ever been done.


 

http://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/

 

In WWI

The Germans themselves thought the barriers were very effective. Gen Ernst Wilhelm von Hoeppner, the commanding general of the German airforce in World War I, received a report stating that the balloons made attacks very difficult and would make future raids on London virtually impossible if balloon defenses continued to improve. In fact, an increase of 3,000 feet in the operational height of the barrage balloons would have effectively stopped German heavier-than air bombardment of London since the Gotha's combat altitude was only 13,000 feet.

 

In WWII

During the Battle of Britain and throughout the war, balloons proved their worth, time and again. Besides protecting strategic cities and ports, barrage balloons mounted in boats defended estuaries against mine-laying aircraft. A declassified wartime report assessed their performance: "Following the aerial sowing of mechanical mines, the reallocation of various units of the balloon barrage system to places like the Thames Estuary, and certain other channels, has resulted in effectively reducing the aerial mine sowing operations of the German Air Force." Barrage balloon cables also successfully frustrated German attempts to achieve surprise, low-level penetration at Dover.
 
So during WWI and WWII both the English and the Germans considered balloons to be effective. Since they were the ones doing the fighting maybe they had some idea on how good they were. Will they stop the rockets I don't know but they would make it harder to get a clear shot. Plus they are cheap.
 
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Herald12345       4/26/2008 7:37:40 PM








Just a wild idea. They used balloons (with nets/wires hanging down) to hinder/stop low level attacks in WWII. Don't know how good they would be in a rocket attack but they were good in WWII. Since rockets are low level for most part balloons could be useful. Seeing as the rockets can not turn like a plane can it could work. It would be cheap to try and hard to defeat.





Use hot air balloons (with the hot air coming from a ground based station) with lots of cells makes it hard to shoot down. While it may not stop the attacks it would limit where the rockets could be fired from making counterfire easier.







Barrage balloons have never been physically effective, much less cost effective.



Besides, the rockets are being fired at maximum range, therefore ~45 degrees elevation, not low and flat, and will go to high for your balloons to block.



 



Lastly, could you supply a web link to a site where someone has used hot air from a ground based station to support a balloon.  I don't think it has ever been done.




 

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http://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/</font></a></p>;" target="_blank" color="#80080a">In WWI

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http://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/</font></a></p>;" target="_blank" color="#80080a">The Germans themselves thought the barriers were very effective. Gen Ernst Wilhelm von Hoeppner, the commanding general of the German airforce in World War I, received a report stating that the balloons made attacks very difficult and would make future raids on London virtually impossible if balloon defenses continued to improve. In fact, an increase of 3,000 feet in the operational height of the barrage balloons would have effectively stopped German heavier-than air bombardment of London since the Gotha's combat altitude was only 13,000 feet.

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battar    Not the wires !   4/27/2008 2:29:03 PM
Just for the record - The idea behind the barrage balloons was not to use the balloon to deter the aircraft. Each ballon held a steel cable aloft. Flying aircraft into the cable at 270 mph was like using a salad cutter on a tomato - it could literally slice a wing off, at the least entangle the aircraft with a ground tethered cable.  The effective lethel radius of the balloon was the wingspan of the enemy aircraft.
The British response to German rocket atatcks was 1) attack the centres of production, 2) attack the launching sites, 3)mislead the enemy as to the impact points. This they did by the clever method of announcing the impact points the the reckets and the impact times of the rockets but not correllating the two data. Thus, if a rocket fell east of the target, they would announce the location, but with the time of impact of a rocket that fell west of the target, thus encouraging the Germans to shorten their aim.
 
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Herald12345    What wires?   4/27/2008 2:35:37 PM

Just for the record - The idea behind the barrage balloons was not to use the balloon to deter the aircraft. Each ballon held a steel cable aloft. Flying aircraft into the cable at 270 mph was like using a salad cutter on a tomato - it could literally slice a wing off, at the least entangle the aircraft with a ground tethered cable.  The effective lethel radius of the balloon was the wingspan of the enemy aircraft.

The British response to German rocket atatcks was 1) attack the centres of production, 2) attack the launching sites, 3)mislead the enemy as to the impact points. This they did by the clever method of announcing the impact points the the reckets and the impact times of the rockets but not correllating the two data. Thus, if a rocket fell east of the target, they would announce the location, but with the time of impact of a rocket that fell west of the target, thus encouraging the Germans to shorten their aim.

The wires were anchored aloft by the balloons. No balloons, no wires.

Herald 

 
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historynut       4/27/2008 3:39:56 PM
















Just a wild idea. They used balloons (with nets/wires hanging down) to hinder/stop low level attacks in WWII. Don't know how good they would be in a rocket attack but they were good in WWII. Since rockets are low level for most part balloons could be useful. Seeing as the rockets can not turn like a plane can it could work. It would be cheap to try and hard to defeat.








Use hot air balloons (with the hot air coming from a ground based station) with lots of cells makes it hard to shoot down. While it may not stop the attacks it would limit where the rockets could be fired from making counterfire easier.











Barrage balloons have never been physically effective, much less cost effective.






Besides, the rockets are being fired at maximum range, therefore ~45 degrees elevation, not low and flat, and will go to high for your balloons to block.






 






Lastly, could you supply a web link to a site where someone has used hot air from a ground based station to support a balloon.  I don't think it has ever been done.






 


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" target=_blank ? href_cetemp=";http://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/

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Ehttp: href_cetemp="Ehttp://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/%3C/font%3E%3C/a%3E%3C/p%3E" p%3E?>link href_cetemp=">http://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/

" target=_blank ? href_cetemp=";http://www.skylighters.org/barrageballoons/

">link target="_blank" color="#80080a">In WWI


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Herald12345    WW II Dive bombers.......    4/27/2008 4:05:00 PM
.............used their nose cannon to strafe the target to suppress AAA  fire and clear barrage balloons as they  attacked. Besides the bombs just went through the balloons as if they weren't there.

Argument II is not relevant as a barrier WALL is not a balloon supported wire barrage which
does NOTHING to stop rockets or mortars from just zinging through the gaps.

Herald
 
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historynut       4/28/2008 12:59:25 PM

.............used their nose cannon to strafe the target to suppress AAA  fire and clear barrage balloons as they  attacked. Besides the bombs just went through the balloons as if they weren't there.

Argument II is not relevant as a barrier WALL is not a balloon supported wire barrage which
does NOTHING to stop rockets or mortars from just zinging through the gaps.

Herald
 
.............used their nose cannon to strafe the target to suppress AAA  fire and clear barrage balloons as they  attacked. Besides the bombs just went through the balloons as if they weren't there.
 
So instand of shooting at the target they had to shoot at a balloon giving the AA guns more time to shoot them down. Sounds like the balloons worked. The idea was that they would not stop an attack just that they would slow it down and make the bad guys work harder. Both the British and the Germans seem to think the balloons worked since they were the ones doing the fighting maybe they were right. The bombs may have gone through the balloons but airplanes had a hard time if they tried to do the same thing.
 
 
 
Argument II is not relevant as a barrier WALL is not a balloon supported wire barrage which
does NOTHING to stop rockets or mortars from just zinging through the gaps.

Never said it would stop all the rockets. Since the rockets would need to be aimed to avoid the wires there would be fewer places to fire from. Now all the guy needs to do is jump up. point in the right direction and fire. When you have to carefully aim it takes longer.
 
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Herald12345       4/28/2008 1:23:48 PM



.............used their nose cannon to strafe the target to suppress AAA  fire and clear barrage balloons as they  attacked. Besides the bombs just went through the balloons as if they weren't there.

Argument II is not relevant as a barrier WALL is not a balloon supported wire barrage which
does NOTHING to stop rockets or mortars from just zinging through the gaps.

Herald

 

.............used their nose cannon to strafe the target to suppress AAA  fire and clear barrage balloons as they  attacked. Besides the bombs just went through the balloons as if they weren't there.

 

So instead of shooting at the target they had to shoot at a balloon giving the AA guns more time to shoot them down. Sounds like the balloons worked. The idea was that they would not stop an attack just that they would slow it down and make the bad guys work harder. Both the British and the Germans seem to think the balloons worked since they were the ones doing the fighting maybe they were right. The bombs may have gone through the balloons but airplanes had a hard time if they tried to do the same thing.

1. The British did not so believe or they wouldn't have abandoned balloon barrage as a defense in 1944/1945.
2. The cannon shells went through the balloons as if they weren't there either.
3. The bombs hit what was below the balloons, CREF (1.)

 
Argument II is not relevant as a barrier WALL is not a balloon supported wire barrage which
does NOTHING to stop rockets or mortars from just zinging through the gaps.

Never said it would stop all the rockets. Since the rockets would need to be aimed to avoid the wires there would be fewer places to fire from. Now all the guy needs to do is jump up. point in the right direction and fire. When you have to carefully aim it takes longer.

Nonsense. The  rockets would  punch through the balloons or zing between the wires and hit what was beyond that would set them off on impact.  Hence Americans don't use barrage balloons either. WALLS, remember?

Herald
 
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