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Subject: The Bush doctrine HUGS the Iranian bomb
Ezekiel    12/9/2007 12:25:19 PM
What this intelligence has done has effectively neutralized the military option in Bush's last year. For whatever reasons the Bush doctrine is dead and buried with the two evil axis getting hugs and of the day. Bush just wrote Kim a nice letter to make sure he dismantles the nukes he was never supposed to have. And Iran is now being dealt with in detante rather then strategic dialogue, given a diplomatic pass. What this means for the future of the region and Israel is mind blowing. Israel has NO CHOICE, and the Israeli public will not allow for a nuclear Iran... so what is the future of this region when the paradigm is an Israel military engagement of Iran... How does this play out? WHere will America stand once such an engagement occurs? And the finale will Israel prove successful and at the same time retain the special relationship with US after all is said and done???
 
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battar    Wrong war   12/12/2007 1:40:02 PM
Sentinel,
               You remind us that the USA is still involved in a war, but is it the right war ? If the US went to war to protect democracy and freedom from intolerant Islamic fundemetalists, then perhaps Iraq is not the right place to do it - perhaps the enemy is in Iran (as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan and Syria ad Somalia and a few other places you might not have thought about). 
Did I say perhaps? Some of these folk leave no doubt as to their intentions. They want your heads, Sentinel and VV, as well as mine,
 
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YelliChink       12/12/2007 2:24:54 PM

After Iran, a perfect encirclement will start from Estonia to Japan, containing Russia and my homeland China.


If this is how Vlad and Hu think, then they should order their advisors shot immediately. All their neighbors, including each other, have grudge with them over centuries for very good reasons. The reality is that their neighbors all try to spin US foreign policy in their own favor, not vice versa.
 
If this is how Russian and Chinese geopolitical strategists think, then they are doomed to be losers. The US is not playing grand strategy at the such shell-game level.
 
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rb_martin       12/12/2007 3:34:13 PM

Sentinel,

               You remind us that the USA is still involved in a war, but is it the right war ? If the US went to war to protect democracy and freedom from intolerant Islamic fundemetalists, then perhaps Iraq is not the right place to do it - perhaps the enemy is in Iran (as well as Afghanistan and Pakistan and Syria ad Somalia and a few other places you might not have thought about). 

Did I say perhaps? Some of these folk leave no doubt as to their intentions. They want your heads, Sentinel and VV, as well as mine,


It is beyond the scope of "the right war" at this point. Right or wrong, the US is involved in Iraq and hopefully has the fortitude to see it through to it's conclusion. Hind-sight is 20-20, and pondering the legitimacy of whether it was right or not to go into Iraq at this point amounts to nothing but mental masturbation. America is involved in Iraq, and hopefully will achieve the goals the administration has set.


Perhaps it did just occur to you that there might be a greater threat in Iran, and possibly in Pakistan as well but that is a localized threat for the time being. America's commitments are more diverse, covering not only the Middle East, but Europe with what appears to be a resurgence in the former Soviet Union, and Asia, with China becoming a pain in the ass. I know it may be difficult to understand, but even the US has limited resources to commit. Over-extending those resources would not do anyone any good, and could possibly mean failure on multiple levels which would compound the problem.

Yes, radical Islamists are pissed at the world. Yes, they are a problem. So what would you have us do? Drop everything and come running? Abandon everyone else? And is that a realistic solution? Did we waste all of that money and hardware shipped to Israel over the past umpteen years on a paper tiger? Stow the doom and gloom; it just doesn't wash.
 
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Herald12345       12/12/2007 3:49:45 PM



After Iran, a perfect encirclement will start from Estonia to Japan, containing Russia and my homeland China.



If this is how Vlad and Hu think, then they should order their advisors shot immediately. All their neighbors, including each other, have grudge with them over centuries for very good reasons. The reality is that their neighbors all try to spin US foreign policy in their own favor, not vice versa.

 

If this is how Russian and Chinese geopolitical strategists think, then they are doomed to be losers. The US is not playing grand strategy at the such shell-game level.

I wish it was. Divide and clobber is the way to derail MacKinder.

As to the maniacs and the magical thinkers who surround Israel.  All I can say is that GWB screwed up a golden opportunity  to re-educate a billion superstition driven Human beings who then could have taken responsibility for themselves and reformed their societies into a peaceful community.

Now we will have to start from even further back as the  Saudi and Persian bandits sow the seeds for a moslem civil war that will be fought not only in their region, but GLOBALLY as those maniacs try to prove to each other which one is the most correct islamic follower of a child molesting drug addict.

There will be no peace in the ME until islam DIES as a belief system. 

Jettisoning Israel is not the way to kill that belief system. Rational Humans should consider that for democracies to survive in a region full of bandits, you have to fight to  sustain the prototype democracy economically, politically, and militarily.

Selling out an ally for a short term soon to be depleted fossil fuel commodity and a birthrate/immigration influx of superstition driven maniacs is neither smart nor prudent.

Examples of the consequences-Holland, Sweden, Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, UK etc.

The enemy is clear in his intent, clear in his methods, clear in his desired results. For now I choose education as the weapon to engage and change him to MY desired template.

But I am not averse to KILLING him to achieve that result.

I have no intention to join one billion superstition driven Human beings in a 6th century CE hemp smoker's delusional  shared nightmare.

Herald
 
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battar    Safety officer   12/12/2007 4:42:18 PM
RB-Martin,
                  You call Iran and Pakistan "a localized problem" ? I don't think though. They support anti west, anti US, anti democracy, and anti anything-that-isn't-Moslem terorism and crimes all over the world. Terrorists might grow up in your back yard, but they don't learn hatred in American schools. It comes from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and other such nice friendly places. As for ignoring "localized problems", every safety officer will tell you that you can put out any fire with one cup of waer - if you catch it in time.  Yes, Israel does sometimes use American hardware to go chasing errorists, and do you know what happens when Israel catches them?  The rest of the world passes UN resolutions saying naughty Israel mustn't kill those poor terrorists, pity on them (I know the US vetoes these resolutions). The IDF has killed more terrorists - er, sorry, freedom fighters - than you have had hot dinners, but thick and fast they come at last and more and more and more.
 
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rb_martin       12/13/2007 12:42:27 AM

RB-Martin,

                  You call Iran and Pakistan "a localized problem" ? I don't think though. They support anti west, anti US, anti democracy, and anti anything-that-isn't-Moslem terorism and crimes all over the world. Terrorists might grow up in your back yard, but they don't learn hatred in American schools. It comes from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and other such nice friendly places. As for ignoring "localized problems", every safety officer will tell you that you can put out any fire with one cup of waer - if you catch it in time.  Yes, Israel does sometimes use American hardware to go chasing errorists, and do you know what happens when Israel catches them?  The rest of the world passes UN resolutions saying naughty Israel mustn't kill those poor terrorists, pity on them (I know the US vetoes these resolutions). The IDF has killed more terrorists - er, sorry, freedom fighters - than you have had hot dinners, but thick and fast they come at last and more and more and more.


My point being, America can not take on the entire world at once.  The recurrent theme I see in this thread is that all is lost because Christians  In Action releases an NIE that doesn't support world opinion for whatever reason, which I seriously doubt we'll ever know. Does this mark a radical shift in policy towards Israel? Not in my opinion. A radical shift in policy towards Israel would be cutting you off from the military aid that America provides you. I do not see this as a plausible course of action, nor a desirable course of action.

So for the foreseeable future, policy has shifted in the way that the US deals with Iran. Where this shift leads is anyone's guess. We can argue and speculate where this will lead, but no-one here are able to look up the Iranian mullah's arses and read their minds. So for the immediate future, Israel is going to have to stand on it's own two feet. Israel has it's own nuclear weapons after all, that are functional. Add to that a very capable military.

It's topics like this that really make me question to wisdom of supplying aid to countries that will be dependent on the US indefinitely. I always made the assumption that Israel was a nation-state instead of a protectorate. Quit feeling sorry for yourselves and get on with what needs to be done.


 
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sentinel28a       12/13/2007 5:47:51 AM
I'd rather be supplying Israel with aid money than Egypt or Saudi Arabia.  Until this thread, I was pretty sure we were steadfast allies.  I'm a bit worried now, though not enough that the University of Haifa and the Eliat beaches have ceased tempting me.
 
That is why the IDF will win, you know.  Hot babes. 
 
Seriously though--Ezekiel, you didn't come out and call Americans cowards and liars, but you implied it very strongly.  And to be honest, as long as Bush is in office, I don't expect to see any major shift in Iran policy--maybe it'll get quieter, to keep Congress placated, but it's still there. Why Condi Rice is wasting her time negotiating with the Palestinians is beyond me, though.  After Bush leaves in 2009, it depends on who gets in there.  Giuliani would stay close with Israel, and the other Repubs to a lesser extent (except Ron Paul, but no one but moonbats and college students take him seriously).  Hillary actually might prove very helpful to Israel, but only if the polls say it's okay.  The other Dems...watch out.
 
I understand Ahmadinejad is going on hajj here soon.  The Saudis could go a long way towards proving their worth as an ally and ridding themselves of a headache by arranging an, um, accident.
 
 
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reefdiver       12/15/2007 1:50:37 PM

I understand Ahmadinejad is going on hajj here soon.  The Saudis could go a long way towards proving their worth as an ally and ridding themselves of a headache by arranging an, um, accident.

 


Maybe the Saudi's could blame it on Al Qaeda. 
 
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FJV    Beginners   12/15/2007 3:52:40 PM

I understand Ahmadinejad is going on hajj here soon.  The Saudis could go a long way towards proving their worth as an ally and ridding themselves of a headache by arranging an, um, accident.

 


Puh! Amateurs, one would expect better on the art of subverting the enemy.

A real professional would deal with Ahmadinejad by arranging him to get caught (on camera) in the act of having sex with a male prostitute. Ahmadinejad playing the "female part" of course. 




 
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Herald12345    A real "professional"..............   12/15/2007 8:42:55 PM




I understand Ahmadinejad is going on hajj here soon.  The
Saudis could go a long way towards proving their worth as an ally and
ridding themselves of a headache by arranging an, um, accident.



 




Puh! Amateurs, one would expect better on the art of subverting the enemy.

A real professional would deal with Ahmadinejad by arranging him to get caught (on camera) in the act of having sex with a male prostitute. Ahmadinejad playing the "female part" of course. 

..........................would make sure the pitcher was the ayatollah Khameini wehile Ahmadinejad  caught; and that in the baseball there, somewhere there would be a goat.

Herald



 
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