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Subject: Jewish Sovereignty
Ezekiel    11/29/2007 9:42:58 AM
Why is it such a polemical and emotional discussion? Arguably the first nation-state, as well as having ancient, verifiable and well documented history become so controversial? It seems to me that Jewish Power is the root of this discussion, for the Jews themselves; and those that would much rather they revert back to the powerlessness that identified their position for two millenia. But the question remains....WHY IS POWER SUCH A PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO THE JEWS HAVING IT OR EXERTING IT???
 
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Herald1234    Many Humans are bigots.......   11/29/2007 3:08:59 PM

Why is it such a polemical and emotional discussion? Arguably the first nation-state, as well as having ancient, verifiable and well documented history become so controversial?

It seems to me that Jewish Power is the root of this discussion, for the Jews themselves; and those that would much rather they revert back to the powerlessness that identified their position for two millenia.

But the question remains....WHY IS POWER SUCH A PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO THE JEWS HAVING IT OR EXERTING IT???
 
 
.........and they always want to blame somebody else for their own failures for which they refuse to individually take responsibility.

Historically the Children of Israel were such a safe target for bigots for two thousand years, that when the Jewish people finally said ENOUGH and built their own state with their own hands, most of the bigots became upset that they no longer had their convenient victims to kick around.
 
Nobody likes to look into the mirror and see themselves as they really are. They'd rather point at the stranger and say, "Its your fault."

Modern Israel took that crutch away from so many human failures who were comfortable with their "hate the Jews, blame the Jews" bigotry.

And you know what? Good for Israel! Ram it down their throats. People won't change, accept responsibility for themselcves, or learn to stop leaning on their bigotry crutches, until their crutches are kicked out from under them, and they fall into the offal of their own bigotry and they smell the stench of their own crimes as they lay in the filth of their own making. Maybe then they'll accept the responsibility for their own mess and clean it and themselves up morally and culturally.

That goes for any anti-Jewish bigot-or any ethnic/racist/religious bigot of any stripe.

To reiterate-Israel takes away the comfortable bigot's lie, that the Jewish people are the reason that the bigot is a failure.

Herald     
 
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battar    Haven't read the bible lately, have you   11/29/2007 4:26:02 PM
Ezekiel,
              If you read the bible more carefully you would note that Israel is certainly not the first nation state - Egypt was there first.  Of course, the bible does not record all of worlds' history, so you can't use it as an exclusive source.
You will also note that the Israelites didn't so much settle in Israel as take bits of it by force from other people. There is a list of nations - none of whom survive today - who the bible specificially says the Israelites can be nasty to -some of whom were nasty in turn to the sons of Abraham.  Even Jeusalem was not built by David but captured from the Jebusites.
 
End of history lesson. As for the present, I think most Europeans don't really care about Israel, and some are glad that the Jews are there and not in their own backyard.  The biggest problem for Israel is that the countries bordering it are all Moslem, and that would be a problem for any country - except another Moslem one, of course. Anywhere there is a border between a Moslem and non-Moslem state , Turkey excluded, there is bound to be trouble.
 
As for Jews exerting power - it's just the old "us and them" distinction you find anywhere. Sometimes what appears to be antisemiism is actually xenophobia.  These people we call antisemites hate Jews, but not just Jews - they are against anyone who isn't like them.
 
There is also the sometimes justified suspicion of split loyalty. And if you cared to converse with ultra-orthodox Jews you might hear, as I have heard, things said by Jews about Christians that can only justify antisemitism. I can quote some remarks if you insist, though I prefer not to, but it ran along the lines of who is worth more and who less merely on the basis of religion, and even to the extent of claiming for whom the world was created and who is just along for the ride. 
 
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VelocityVector       11/29/2007 6:56:38 PM
Good post, Herald.  And for the record I am not a Jew nor do I have Jewish lineage afaik.

v^2

 
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jastayme3       11/29/2007 10:06:06 PM

Ezekiel,

              If you read the bible more carefully you would note that Israel is certainly not the first nation state - Egypt was there first.  Of course, the bible does not record all of worlds' history, so you can't use it as an exclusive source.

You will also note that the Israelites didn't so much settle in Israel as take bits of it by force from other people. There is a list of nations - none of whom survive today - who the bible specificially says the Israelites can be nasty to -some of whom were nasty in turn to the sons of Abraham.  Even Jeusalem was not built by David but captured from the Jebusites.

 

End of history lesson. As for the present, I think most Europeans don't really care about Israel, and some are glad that the Jews are there and not in their own backyard.  The biggest problem for Israel is that the countries bordering it are all Moslem, and that would be a problem for any country - except another Moslem one, of course. Anywhere there is a border between a Moslem and non-Moslem state , Turkey excluded, there is bound to be trouble.

 

As for Jews exerting power - it's just the old "us and them" distinction you find anywhere. Sometimes what appears to be antisemiism is actually xenophobia.  These people we call antisemites hate Jews, but not just Jews - they are against anyone who isn't like them.

 

There is also the sometimes justified suspicion of split loyalty. And if you cared to converse with ultra-orthodox Jews you might hear, as I have heard, things said by Jews about Christians that can only justify antisemitism. I can quote some remarks if you insist, though I prefer not to, but it ran along the lines of who is worth more and who less merely on the basis of religion, and even to the extent of claiming for whom the world was created and who is just along for the ride. 

Battar, the objection to saying "who is worth more and who less merely on the basis of religion", is based on the assumption that religion is a "merely". Which is a matter in dispute and therefore cannot be dismissed that easily. Those who hold that behavior in contempt are not slow to think themselves better then others on the basis of things they care about.
For the record I have heard "things" said about Christians by Jews. There was one Rabbi who said that converts get boiled in excrement in The Other Place. That was too funny to be mad about. More annoying there was a Rabbi in J Post who said Catholics were idolators and Buddhists not. Now I know all about the sainthood controversy, I know the Catholics defense and think it a thin one. On the other hand their consciences are their own, the thirty years war is over and I was slightly annoyed at a Jew usurping a Protestant's priveledge of insulting Catholics. However in this case it was defensible as the question was whether it was Kosher to go into a barber shop with Catholic symbols. Another one I remember was a Jew saying that "saying my God is better then your God is idolatry", which would make for two God's,, of course-besides the fact that the original basis of Judaism was saying their God was better then other alledged gods...
So I have heard annoying things from Jews and I have not been annoyed at Jews. I was annoyed at those particular Jews sometimes.
As for saying who is worth more on the basis of religion I would never dream of saying I was worth more then Jews. That is not any great compliment to my tolerance as there are a number of worldviews whom I would be tempted to say I was worth more then. However as it happens I don't think I am worth more then Jews. I think I am correct and them wrong about The Ancient Controversy. But I concede them the priveledge of thinking the reverse. Hopefully those that are really trying to find out will find out in time. And as I think He is loving as well as just I have some reason for hoping that.

 
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jastayme3       11/29/2007 11:53:56 PM

Why is it such a polemical and emotional discussion? Arguably the first nation-state, as well as having ancient, verifiable and well documented history become so controversial?

It seems to me that Jewish Power is the root of this discussion, for the Jews themselves; and those that would much rather they revert back to the powerlessness that identified their position for two millenia.

But the question remains....WHY IS POWER SUCH A PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO THE JEWS HAVING IT OR EXERTING IT???
Arabs are just seizing a weapon, not being logical. It is akin to Arabs complaints of "Imperialism" alternating with Sudanese slave taking, and is not to be taken seriously.
As for Europeans, many of them are somewhat obsessed with a cosmopolitan dream and find the idea of  an ethnic or religious basis for a society distasteful. The fact that they are based on that is in fact irrelevant to them. For one thing power is a problem when it comes to Europeans having it or exerting it too. They are embarrassed to use force to keep their own Muslims under control and are annoyed that Israelis are less embarrassed.
As for Americans, probably most Americans have no problem with Jews having power or exerting it.
Also one must not be decieved. Often the fact that an idea is proclaimed is only an indication of people's desire to cause trouble. See Prov 18: 2.
 
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battar    Not one of them   11/30/2007 11:21:18 AM
Jastayme3,
                      I'm not really surprised at the rubbish I hear from promoters of this religion or the other. You get to hear the same pleasantries from all sides. The basic claim all religions make is that they are based on truth, which by default means all the rest are based on untruths, so everyone else is living a lie, and worthy of contempt.
 
What does annoy me very much is when a follower of the Jewish faith says something stupid about Judaism - along the lines of what you quoted - and then turns around and says that I am a Jew just like him. Well I am not like these people, there is no club which will accept both of us a members, and I don't like being pointed to as someone who should believe in what others believe in. Do you know what what happens when I ask them to stop doing it? Here is the actual reply I was given by an orthodox Jew with whom I discussed the issue. He said "you believe, you just don't know that you believe". 
Can some one give me a snappy comeback to that one, other than "you are a product of evolution, you just don't know that you are a product of evolution" ?
 
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jastayme3       11/30/2007 12:59:39 PM

Jastayme3,

                      I'm not really surprised at the rubbish I hear from promoters of this religion or the other. You get to hear the same pleasantries from all sides. The basic claim all religions make is that they are based on truth, which by default means all the rest are based on untruths, so everyone else is living a lie, and worthy of contempt.

 

What does annoy me very much is when a follower of the Jewish faith says something stupid about Judaism - along the lines of what you quoted - and then turns around and says that I am a Jew just like him. Well I am not like these people, there is no club which will accept both of us a members, and I don't like being pointed to as someone who should believe in what others believe in. Do you know what what happens when I ask them to stop doing it? Here is the actual reply I was given by an orthodox Jew with whom I discussed the issue. He said "you believe, you just don't know that you believe". 

Can some one give me a snappy comeback to that one, other than "you are a product of evolution, you just don't know that you are a product of evolution
Battar, as Positivists hold others in contempt too, and in my experience more then religious folk it is really not somthing to
make a to-do about. Especially as you are doing so just now.

The definition of belief is:

be·lief  http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif" border="0">  http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png" alt="" border="0">http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif" border="0">  [bi-leef] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation ?noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

As you are obviously adhering
 
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jastayme3       11/30/2007 1:47:56 PM
Now is there any logical purpose to this? Neither of us will faze the other, we are repeating arguments we have had before in exactly the same way. It will only be fun for me for a short time and I presume the same is true for you. It is dubious whether it helps the intellectual edification of others around.
Admittedly you are in a bind. As you belief in a negative proposition, it is hard to express it without seeming negative.

So let us postulate that:

1. There is no posible proof either that there is a God or there is  not. If there is  He would not be pleased at my being impolite to an opponent and I have been at times.

2. Religious folk are often bigoted. However there is nothing about religion that ensures that relious people are bigoted and atheists not.

3. Religious folk are often superstitious. However that is not in itself proof that (any)religion is superstition.

4. There is no possibility of finding ultimate proof about such things. That does not necessarily mean that thinking about "such things" is vanity. It does mean that despiseing those who think different is illogical.

I doubt that will satisfy you Battar. But there it is.

One more thing, when you say religious people are irrational, you are saying I am irrational. Now I have noticed that religious people can indeed be irrational.  But saying so is my priveledge as a  religious  person-just as saying Catholics are in danger of idolatry(which is not the same as guilty) is my priveledge as a Protestant. If an Atheist says so he is insulting all religious people and, yes, I do take it personally. OK.
Now if you say that one's religious belief is an element of life that cannot be wholely guided by rational thought, that is obvious, and that is a different thing. If you say it is irrational, I take that to mean that you are saying it is a rebellion against reason; which is another way of saying that you are calling me a fool. Which is most irritating.

 
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jastayme3       11/30/2007 4:27:38 PM

 As far as evidence goes, well there is nothing conclusive. But I will tell you a story. Not two weeks ago I was
heading out for a cup of coffee. I felt nervous and so I prayed, "Lord please don't let me miss my stop". Not a
superpious quench-the-powers of darkness kind of prayer. Just an off the cuff Tevye-the-Dairyman type. And you
know what? I just looked and less then a second later, there was my bus stop. And the curious thing is I have done
that several times, when I was looking for something-had a book I couldn't find for instance and just turned around and
found it. No, I have not healed anyone, exorcised anyone, or raised the dead. And yes I know, Post hoc, Proptor hoc-I know The Fallacies too. Though Post hoc, Proptor hoc could apply to many things in life-including empiricism by the way.I am not claiming it to be conclusive. I am claiming it to be uncanny. Now I am not asking you to conclude that prayer is effective by the fact that the results happend to be what I wished. And I most certainly am not asking you to conclude that I
am so pious that I actually have a visible hallow. I don't even like to go to church, pray a long time, or read my Bible and I am not spectacularly virtuous.
I do however ask you to consider that there might conceivably be more things in heaven and earth. The impression I get from you is you won't. At least not now. But someone else might. And it is worth mentioning.
Does God care whether I have a good time at a coffeeshop. That depends on your worldview. I think he cares about me and cares about his creation which includes coffee. And I don't think he is so proud as to not care whether I have a cup of coffee.
 
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RockyMTNClimber    Its War   11/30/2007 4:37:28 PM
 
It is a war and this war will continue until there is a resolution. Someone dies, someone lives. This version of the ancient conflict is being continued artificially by people who don't want Israel to win because of the geo-politics of the thing. If Israel falls it will be because they didn't finishing their opponents when they could, at the request of their so called Allies.
 
Someone has to win before it is over. Win in the biblical sense as in the other guys are dead and or gave up the fight and went home. 
 
Check Six
 
Rocky
 
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