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Subject: Dividing Jerusalem
HoundOfHello    10/8/2007 12:43:55 PM
Israeli leader's party will divide Jerusalem Revelation follows fierce denials of split in 'eternal Jewish capital' Posted: March 24, 2006 10:34 a.m. Eastern By Aaron Klein © 2006 WorldNetDaily.com JERUSALEM – Just five days before national elections here, acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's Kadima party revealed yesterday it would divide Jerusalem and allow a Palestinian state to be established in parts of Israel's "eternal capital." The revelation follows months of denials by top Kadima officials that the party would advocate withdrawing from Jerusalem. "The Old City, Mount Scopus, the Mount of Olives, the City of David, Sheikh Jarra will remain in our hands, but [regarding] Kafr Akeb, Abu-Ram, Shuafat, Hizma, Abu-Zaim, Abu-Tur, Abu Dis, in the future, when the Palestinian state is established, they will become its capital," said Otniel Schneller, a Kadima member who represented the party at a debate yesterday on dividing Jerusalem. The neighborhoods Schneller listed are located on Jerusalem's periphery near the city's border with the West Bank. Schneller said Kadima supports "separation between us and the Palestinians who don't live in the heart of Jerusalem," claiming there would be "no concessions" on sites that are sacred to Jews. Several Kadima officials and leaders associated with the party's now comatose founder, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, previously made statements about dividing Jerusalem that immediately were denied by the party. In December, Sharon's senior campaign pollster Kalman Gayer said in an interview with Newsweek the Israeli prime minister would give up parts of Jerusalem in a peace agreement. Immediately following the publication of Gayer's remarks, Sharon appeared on state-run Israeli television and denied his vision for a Palestinian state includes Jerusalem. Olmert, who served as mayor of Jerusalem from 1993-2003, said in a June 2004 interview with the Jerusalem Post that Israel is contemplating turning parts of Jerusalem over to Palestinian control. "Jerusalem is dear to me, but one must not lose sight of proportions over peripheral areas we do not need," said Olmert, who served as deputy prime minister at the time. He claimed ceding control of eastern Jerusalem neighborhoods to the Palestinians is "needed to maintain a Jewish majority in the Holy City." Government officials immediately denied Olmert's statements implied a Jerusalem withdrawal. Kadima's claims yesterday of "only" withdrawing from peripheral sections of Jerusalem worry many here. The Israeli government has denied previous withdrawal plans only to carry them out later, followed by announcements of more withdrawals in larger magnitudes from areas it pledged not to vacate. Olmert was the first Sharon deputy to go public with Israel's plan to evacuate its Jewish communities from the Gaza Strip and four small West Bank communities. That plan was at first denied but later announced by Sharon. Israel withdrew from Gaza and the West Bank towns this past August, claiming there would be no further West Bank withdrawals. Following the Gaza withdrawal, Olmert made statements about withdrawing from large sections of the West Bank. His statements immediately were denied by Sharon. Olmert in February announced if his Kadima party wins upcoming elections his administration will seek to "change Israel's borders" by withdrawing from the vast majority of the West Bank. Israel's left-wing Labor and Meretz parties have in the past discussed dividing Jerusalem. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak in 2000 offered the Palestinians a state in the West Bank, Gaza and eastern sections of Jerusalem. Barak's proposal was rejected by the late Palestinian Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat. Jerusalem first was divided into eastern and western sections when Jordan invaded and occupied Jerusalem and the Old City in 1947, expelling all Jewish inhabitants. Israel built its capital in the western part of the city, while the eastern quarters remained under Jordanian control until Israel captured it, along with the Old City, in 1967 after Jordan's King Hussein ignored Israeli pleas for his country to stay out of the Six Day War. During the 19 years of Arab sovereignty, the ancient Jewish Quarter of the Old City was ravaged, 58 synagogues – some centuries old – were destroyed and slum dwellings were built abutting the Western Wall. Jews were not allowed to visit their holy places and Israeli Christians were subjected to many restrictions, with only limited numbers allowed to visit the Old City and Bethlehem at Christmas and Easter. _______________________________________________________________________ Wow WTF. Is there any support at all for this among Israelis? -HoH
 
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Hugo    Battar   10/16/2007 4:58:40 AM

Can you think of a precedent of a religious majority living peacably with Moslem neighbours? I can't.

 

You want the cold rational approach? Here it comes. Blow up the Mosque and the western wall at the same time. Then no-one has anything to argue about in Jerusalem.

 

You could build a shopping mall on the vacated sites.

 

Of course, I'm only joking, but the funniest jokes are those closest to the truth.


I'm not sure that using explosives would be rational, this isn't the Taliban.  Israel has made a claim to Jerusalem, declared it the capital and has made significant investments in life and treasure to secure it.  Sure if you don't want it then you can leave but if you do then it's time to think long term about how you can prevent it from becoming the next Constantinople.  This isn't about right or wrong, an issue that SGTObvious is touching on, it's about Israel's position and what she's going to do to secure her capital.
 
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Sambation       10/16/2007 8:57:08 AM
"Securing the capital" has nothing to do with a physical mosque. It has to do with idea. If Israel wanted, it could make Jerusalem the most "secure" place in the world. But it doesn't want that. It wants to haggle with its capital.

Moving the mosque is a non-idea; the reason the mosque is there, according to Muslims, is because Mohammed ascended to Allah from that spot after riding his flying horse across the Mideast. You can't alter the religious history as if it were a pair of pants; you can only make people give up on it, as the Jews had done with the Wall prior to liberation and are doing again today.



 
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Ezekiel    the weak leading the strong   10/16/2007 10:40:43 AM
The funny thing is that dividing Jerusalem has no popular support in Israel. Of course there is the fringe in Israel represented by yossi Beilin and his ilk who would in the same breadth have Israel renounce its claim to being a sovereign Jewish state. For now, the media inflated the number of support, the leftist academia grossly misrepresents the significance of bartering of theJewish capital and the radicalized and activist high courts are setting up the legalistic groundwork for such a disastrous policy. Here is an example of the cart leading the horse....
 
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Sambation       10/16/2007 11:06:02 AM
Or more painfully: wag the dog.

But the tail is too stupid to realize that there is a divide and conquer method in Islam trying to divide Jerusalem.

Put half of Mecca on the negotiating table and then we can talk.

 
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battar    Can't take a joke   10/16/2007 12:42:41 PM
SGTobvious,
                        I said I was joking. Point is , all you need for a place to be holy is to believe that it is holy. Nothing to do with history.
 
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jastayme3       10/16/2007 3:01:40 PM

Can you think of a precedent of a religious majority living peacably with Moslem neighbours? I can't.

 

You want the cold rational approach? Here it comes. Blow up the Mosque and the western wall at the same time. Then no-one has anything to argue about in Jerusalem.

 

You could build a shopping mall on the vacated sites.

 

Of course, I'm only joking, but the funniest jokes are those closest to the truth.

Actually yes. There is one 7-11 clerk a block away named Abdul-that is not conclusive but it is an indication that he is Moslem.
At the same time there are a number of Christians in the neighborhood. Probably more then Moslems.

 
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FJV    Keeping your mouth shut   10/19/2007 1:23:29 PM
In my opinion politicians should refrain to make any remarks about what for a permanent solution to the Israel/Palestinian problems will take, before the violence has stopped. In my opinion talks/actions now should only focussed on stopping further violence and threats to people's existence.

Only after the violence has stopped and the threat to people's existence are gone, should talks about what to do with the Palestinian people begin.

But that's my opinion.

PS The following question is reason for some Jewish doubts on being God's chosen people:

What God leads his chosen people for years and years across the searing desert to the only place in the Middle East that has no oil?




 
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jastayme3       10/20/2007 1:19:40 PM

In my opinion politicians should refrain to make any remarks about what for a permanent solution to the Israel/Palestinian problems will take, before the violence has stopped. In my opinion talks/actions now should only focussed on stopping further violence and threats to people's existence.

Only after the violence has stopped and the threat to people's existence are gone, should talks about what to do with the Palestinian people begin.

But that's my opinion.

PS The following question is reason for some Jewish doubts on being God's chosen people:

What God leads his chosen people for years and years across the searing desert to the only place in the Middle East that has no oil?




A very insightful one. Oil didn't do the Arabs much good. Imagine what Kuwaitis would be like if they still had to get their wealth from shipping, caravaning, and pearling rather then having it come out of the ground through foreign labor.

 
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battar    Before what stops?   10/20/2007 3:50:11 PM
FJV says that permanent solutions should not be discussed before the violence stops. If FJV took some time to study cosmology, he would learn that the sun will deplete its' supply of hydrogen in about 5 billion years after which the earth will no longer be capable of supporting life. The violence in the middle east is not likely to stop before then.
On a more serious note, before making such declarations, which like other political statements are overly simplistic, you should learn the Islamic culture and modern version of the Islamic religion and understand what are the driving forces behind the violence and then you might understand what, if anything, is likely to stop it. On a basic level, anywhere that Moslems live in proximity with non-Moslems, you can expect trouble at some level or other - even if they are not enagaged in it they support the idea - so before you come up with a method of completely seperating Islam from the rest of us you are not going to stop anything. After all, Islamic-religious violence isn't confined to Israel. Moslem demonstrators rarely burn the Israeli flag without burning the American flag with the same match.
 
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battar    Gods frozen people    10/20/2007 3:54:09 PM
Gods frozen people are the eskimos of course.
As for doubts about the Jews being gods' chozen people, if  god single out one "people" to favour over the rest, doesn't that make him a racist ?
I'm not expecting an answer since this isn't a serious question - just to give the believers a new direction of thought.
 
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