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Subject: Christian proselytizing in Israel
reefdiver    5/7/2007 11:58:26 AM
A friend was trying to tell me that a Christian can go to jail in Israel for proselytizing. Though I can find numerous attempts to pass such laws (one article mentioned a penalty of 5 years in prison), I can find little about such laws actually being enacted. I've seen comments that the LDS have voluntarily agreed not to proselytize in Israel, but nothing concrete denying such. Anyone have more info on this?
 
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Hugo       8/21/2007 2:54:36 PM




Any views on Cardinal Lustiger, his life and his passing?



Not much. For us Jews, apostates are despicable traitors and must be shunned. If, however, the said apostate is outstandingly successful, has a brilliant career, becomes famous, and, most importantly, refrains from turning against us, we all enthusiastically claim him back, and take great pride in him being one of us. In this case, we regard apostasy as just another one of these little "schticks", such as Einstein's untidiness and Dayan's womanizing, that normally come with great personalities.

I did initiate a thread, a few days ago, about Cardinal Lustiger z"l on the France board. Nobody reacted.
Make sure you read some of the talkbacks below the article I linked to there. Entertaining!


For us Jews, apostates are despicable traitors and must be shunned.

Why is that?  And how does a Jew reconcile his feelings towards an apostate with his feelings towards an ordinary Christian?
 
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Shirrush       8/21/2007 4:03:44 PM
Feelings are feelings. That pretty much answers your question, doesn't it.
Besides, I'm not this board's rabbi, only my own, and even my closest relatives incl. my own rather opinionated offspring question my rabbinical qualifications.
So, I'll pass on this one and you'll have to wait for another Jewish poster to volunteer for this job.
Then, we'll assail him with all sorts of refutations and arguments, and this thread will proceed apace.

By the way, how do the Christian churches look upon apostasy, in this world I mean?

 
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jastayme3       8/21/2007 9:11:02 PM

Feelings are feelings. That pretty much answers your question, doesn't it.
Besides, I'm not this board's rabbi, only my own, and even my closest relatives incl. my own rather opinionated offspring question my rabbinical qualifications.
So, I'll pass on this one and you'll have to wait for another Jewish poster to volunteer for this job.
Then, we'll assail him with all sorts of refutations and arguments, and this thread will proceed apace.

By the way, how do the Christian churches look upon apostasy, in this world I mean?



"Tis a pity-better rescue the poor thing. Devote the week to fasting and prayer..." Orthodox are less charitable as I understand because the Eastern Orthodox are more tightly woven into the general culture. However Evangelicals think of proslitizing as charity not as a means of conducting a power struggle. As for our attitudes toward Mormans it is something like, "Oh they're so dedicated, why does it have to be put in the service of error." While all that can sound patronizing to an outsider the fact is believing something and trying to be reasonably nice will always sound patronizing. After all,"Goyim are allowed in if they keep the Noahides" sounds like it makes me your camp follower! However Evangelicals don't shun those of us who convert. I suppose if one was especially rude as a reaction it might get our gander up. But otherwise(more or less)fair's, fair. Which does not mean we would not grieve. Just that we would not necessarily regard it as treachery. Evangelicalism, despite it's "rednecky" reputation is a rather abstract and unworldly creed. If it is taken for granted that God and one's neighbor our more important then our influence as such then we can worry less about such things. Yes I know that goes against the formation of a political lobby. However the "Religious Right" is usually about things it considers to be of general importance, and is allied with conservative Catholics and Jews. And no one is consistent in any case. All this is said, is not claiming sainthood, nor is it claiming that we never belie what I just said. It is saying that Evangelical Christians at least have a different outlook then some.
 
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Hugo       8/26/2007 3:56:42 PM

Feelings are feelings. That pretty much answers your question, doesn't it.
Besides, I'm not this board's rabbi, only my own, and even my closest relatives incl. my own rather opinionated offspring question my rabbinical qualifications.
So, I'll pass on this one and you'll have to wait for another Jewish poster to volunteer for this job.
Then, we'll assail him with all sorts of refutations and arguments, and this thread will proceed apace.

By the way, how do the Christian churches look upon apostasy, in this world I mean?



I think Jastayme put it pretty accurately.  I can't comment on how Christian churches look upon apostasy because I only belong to one but as far as Christians themselves are concerned I think the common reaction would be "poor soul."
 
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jastayme3       8/26/2007 5:59:36 PM



Feelings are feelings. That pretty much answers your question, doesn't it.
Besides, I'm not this board's rabbi, only my own, and even my closest relatives incl. my own rather opinionated offspring question my rabbinical qualifications.
So, I'll pass on this one and you'll have to wait for another Jewish poster to volunteer for this job.
Then, we'll assail him with all sorts of refutations and arguments, and this thread will proceed apace.

By the way, how do the Christian churches look upon apostasy, in this world I mean?




I think Jastayme put it pretty accurately. I can't comment on how Christian churches look upon apostasy because I only belong to one but as far as Christians themselves are concerned I think the common reaction would be "poor soul."


Admittedly it is as much history as saintliness-Western Christians have held the upper hand long enough to feel confident. And in America religious prejudice has always been a matter of rudeness, not politics. I would give a guess that Armenians for instance would feel quite a bit different about the matter given their different history.
 
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jastayme3       9/9/2007 2:42:53 AM
Also there is simply a difference in worldview. Christians think of Christianity, to put it in very simplistic terms, primarily as a metaphysical propisition-and therefore subject to being discussed and advocated. It is only secondarily a "cultural tradition." For Jews it is more complicated as Judaism is both a religion and a tribe and apostasy is considered "betraying your mother's kin", not just changeing a belief. That also explains the controversy about Messianics who wish to continue ethnic loyalty while changing religious belief. Which is not to bring that one up again, just to identify what is in dispute. Proslytising of Jews is a troublesome issue because it is looked at differently by Jews and Christians. Many Christians would find it suprising that many Jews call it anti-semitic("so we say we're right and you're wrong-you say you're right and we're wrong and we don't complain"). In fact it is seldom intended as anti-semitic,at least by most Americans. Which does not mean it never can be such. What is the solution? Argueably there is none. However I think the modern definition of tolerance won't do. A better word might be "fair play". If you disaggree argue when it is time to argue, but generally accept others. There are worse things then being wrong about something especially when you are probably wrong about something too.
 
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jastayme3       9/10/2007 10:39:18 PM
Also there is simply a difference in worldview. Christians think of Christianity, to put it in very simplistic terms, primarily as a metaphysical propisition-and therefore subject to being discussed and advocated. It is only secondarily a "cultural tradition." For Jews it is more complicated as Judaism is both a religion and a tribe and apostasy is considered "betraying your mother's kin", not just changeing a belief.
To further illuminate the misunderstanding, I have heard it said that some Jews think you can be born a Christian the way you can be born a Jew. You can be raised to be a Christian, but it is ultimatly considered a personal decision. For instance Michael Coreleone would probably be only a nominal as conducting assasinations while you say Mass is rather disrespectful.
 
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Ezekiel    chutzpah   5/19/2008 3:12:27 AM
I am in Israel, have been for a couple of weeks...Yesterday waiting in a train terminal at Herziliyah I was approached by 2 men and a girl all in their late 20's. They wanted to talk to me about Jesus Christ. This not being the first time I have been the target of Christian missionaries. I was relaxed, I was calm, I told them they should turn around and go away... But with the zeal of faith they were not to be cast aside so easily. They retorted some what brazenly that they would like to simply discuss the teachings of Jesus Christ. I kindly told them that I have studies the 2nd testament with a discerning eye, and was instructed by a pauline priest for a number of years, I am aware to a certain extenty of the central tenants found within Christianity, and it was not my cup of tea. At this, they began without invitation, quoting bible verse to me.
 
I had questions of my own...
I asked them why they were in Israel...and they answered because "we are here to bring the Jews to the teachings of Christ"
Then I asked why Jews in particular... they answered without hesitiation, "they are G-ds first born and rejected their king... we are here to correct this."
They started to discuss how Jesus perfected G-ds word in the Torah, and that Christian are just really perfected Jews....
Christianity and Judaism in the end quite the same, and only Jesus is where these two beliefs differ.
 
This in fact is far from the truth...their are huge differences between the two faiths....realizing the futility in this excercize, I turned and walked away. As I was walking away I heard the girl speak to the other man in native Hebrew, they were Israeli's...
 
The Jewish State I realize has another front it must protect itself from, that is overt/unethical missionary activities within its borders.
 
 
 
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battar    Not let this pass   5/20/2008 3:13:23 PM
Ezekial,
              You come to Israel and you don't suggest we meet for a beer or coffee?
Long ago a wise man taught me that it takes two fools for a foolish argument. I have several times been accosted by Jewish missionaries trying to persuade me to tie Tefillin or observe some other rite, and once (only) by Christian missionaries. I respond to these people as I respond to telemarketing phone-calls - I find a polite and diplomatic way to tell them to get stuffed.  I told the Christian misionnaries that I am an atheist. I easily get rid of then Jewish crusaders by telling them that I am not Jewish. They don't have a ready answer for that. You can also take whatever literature they hand you and immediately drop it in the nearest garbage container - you have to be sure that they see you doing it -but they might get upset about that. If a Moslem missionary handed you a Koran and you pulled that stunt you could start a regional war.  One way of embarressing these folk is by pretending that you know absolutely nothing about the subject and asking the most simple questions - which they never thought ask, or answer (" I don't understand - is Jesus really dead then, or is he alive and hiding like Elvis?  Do you mean to tell me that his mother slept with god?!")
But at the end of the day, you can't fight stupidity.
 
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Ezekiel    what now   5/21/2008 6:32:31 AM
Nearly 2 days after I posted my above experience...this was reported in the Jpost
 
 
the timing is a little eerie.
 
Battar, I do not get the satisfaction u seem to get in rejecting the religous zeal of some of these believers. I respect it actually, but in this instance what struck a nerve in me though was the divide between what christianity actually believes and what these native israeli's believe they believe when they say they're Christians. Plus I have a hard time reconciling these types of activities in the one and only Jewish State.
 
A beer hey... maybe next time.
 
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