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Subject: Avigdor Lieberman
Herc the Merc    11/1/2006 3:49:17 PM
comments??
 
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Ezekiel       1/3/2007 3:17:07 AM
Shirrush actually i'm not Israeli, and I am not one prone to conspiracy theories, and in your response you gave plenty of ad hominem responses but didn't give much else as a response to any of the points I attempted to make. Though in true israeli fashion you deflect all the points by trashing the whole system, so to you what ever point or consideration someone makes on Israel, unless he doesn't take a stance that every stance sux well then you've labelled, categorized him/her and then  feel comfortable to disregard what he is actually trying to express. The fact is it is a well known fact that the iron triangle exists.... there are only three newspapers in all of israel- and they don't espouse right wing views can you agree with that? is it not true that the supreme court is known to be leftist and that they basically appoint themselves which logically l-eads to an ideologically undiverse group (read cheshins interview inhaaretz the week after he retired...unbelievable) wasn't beinish taught in hebrew U by Barak....I mean come on. The incitement laws tend to be profiled against the settler community where many of them are put under house arrest or detained without a trial as was seen during the lead up to disengagement. and the universities well I don't know what to say I mean the only real uni in Israel that is not considered a l-eft wing bastion is Bar illan, and we both know it ain't the best university. We're getting off the point the fact is there is history in Israel of a l-eft wing cadre from the refusal to l-et jabotinsky to be buried in the country for al-ong time, to the IDF requiring labor membership to join its upper ranks (this was abolished in early 70's) I mean come on if you won't admit this then what's the point. You revealed yourself when you said "mistake" of becoming a nation-state. It makes me understand that you have completely given up on the jewish state... I say that a jewish state is right now very young, and the jews are 1900 yrs out of practice at running one, having to play the part of the court jew for so long, reminds me of the abba eban quote, " u can take the jew out of the exile, but it doesn't mean you can take the exile out of the jew." Though i look at world history and i see how much of a positive impact the jews have had on the worl-d from giving a morality that western civ is based on, to the concept of one god which half the world believes in.. Israel didn't get to slowly through continuous inhabitance on the land regrow a national culture, it was done in trauma from the face of genocide to the hands of Arab rejection and so it ain't easy...but it never is for the jews, that's just the way it is. They didn't have a chance to have an alexander hamilton against a thomas jefferson   The fact is in Israel today there is a left wing biased that has led it to a politically skewed spectrum that  if your rightist and have a sense of nationalism (which is by the way necessary  in any national enterprise to a certain degree) you are immediately and/or knee jerk labeled an extremist or ultra nationalist this has left a political debate devoid of any real healthy debate and has engendered bad policy.... in the big picture it forces the right in Israel to have to be better/smarter in order to finally succeed in entering the mainstream and thus creating a very much needed  balance..... so for me this all translates too when an isreali pol-itician is considered an extremist or a war mongerer what have you, i immediately take a step back and try to find out on my own instead of listening to the mob or the errent dissillusioned Israeli....Its the only way when it comes to Israel to trully get an accurate perspective.
 
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jastayme3       1/3/2007 3:19:02 AM
Shirush, I doubt it's a comfort but the only country's that don't regularly elect crooks, dimwits and serial blunderers are those that don't have elections.
 
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Shirrush       1/6/2007 4:04:54 PM
This topic is getting better by the post, and inscribes itself neatly in the local zeitgeist. Try this rather amusing piece from our most irritatingly left-wing press organ, and make sure you read some of the talkbacks, in which the usual antisemites are of course having a field day.

Bigfella, thanks for the compliments.
I confess that I was part of the crowd that made Sharon the Big Bad Right Wing Wolf he wasn't, and I do regret it.
Sharon was every bit a scion of the Labor Zionism, the current that made it possible for us to become a nation-state and to survive as such against overwhelming odds. Enamored with power as only a true Human can be, Sharon made, early on in his dazzling political career, the cynical choice of adopting the rightist-nationalist-territorialist stance and language I loathe so much, but I now doubt he ever believed any of it.
His settlement policy as Minister of Agriculture and Minister of Housing under M. Begin was by no means in contradiction with his left-leaning, socialistic caste's pioneering and colonizing ideology, that had done, a long time before the six-days war, their share of  the brutal expropriations without which we would never have stood a chance as a defensible territory, let alone a viable economy.

Sharon as Prime Minister in wartime was a model of restraint, and the fact that there are still Palestinians alive to massacre each other today is sufficient proof that Sharon in fact was a bleeding-heart moderate. Moreover, the not-uncertain political victory he scored against the territorialist-messianic rightists whom he expelled out of Gaza, also speaks volumes about Sharon's true leanings.
Above all, the fact that he never even did anything serious or intentional against the country's democratic institutions in spite of the fact that almost everybody, including yours truly, expected him to become a dictator shortly after winning the PM's seat, vindicates your definition of him as a centrist.
His legacy, however, is rather horrendous. He did defeat Arafat's 2nd Intifada and we're not dying in city buses anymore, but he left us with pervasive corruption, cronyism, and a general disregard for citizen's rights and the civil society that will take us decades to repair, if we ever get around to it before the Moslems wipe us out.
There have been tons of articles on how Sharon would have handled the Hizb-Allah, but the bottom line is that it was him that gutted the IDF's GC from any officer capable of independent thought or sufficiently brilliant to be perceived as a threat to the brown-noses, and the results of the war are the results of Sharon's cronyism too.

In spite of all his shortcomings and the damage he did to our country's image and cohesion, Sharon was our last leader. For the first time in its 4,000 years of history, Israel is now bereft of a King, and there's not even a Prophet who can anoint one.
This is an absolutely new, unprecedented situation, with nothing similar, even in the Bible. So far, the people of Israel has been reacting to this with a surprising apathy, a state of political catatonia in which nothing exceeds the level of the above-quoted article or the low-key groaning and ranting I'm doing here.

We must wake up before we're all dead, somehow. Let's panic!

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Shirrush    Ezekiel   1/6/2007 4:38:08 PM
Ezekiel, your knowledge of Israel is commendable if indeed you're not one of us, and I did mistake you for one the Likudnikim that appear sporadically on these boards.

Your opinions are respectable even though I disagree with most, but please kindly make sure that they are brought up in a respectable way. Automatic writing could be tolerated for short posts, but if you have much to say, please make sure to use coherent sentences arranged in separate paragraphs.

I  am for one interested in what you want to say, so please go easy on my poor eyesight and on my shrinking attention span, willya?
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I am as irritated as you are by the leftists of HaAretz, and above all, by the moonbats of the state-run Arutz 1 shilling for Cindy Sheehan every chance they get. (but hey, nobody watches Arutz 1 anymore except for extreme insomniacs in search of a cure)
That does not mean that the whole of Israel in in the thralls of these shallow thinkers, but only that the other side can't write much. As for your "three newspapers" assertion, it's simply not true. We have a free press here, and the most rabid rightists are free to distill their hatred, in Hebrew, in the  national religious and haredi papers such as Hatzofeh, HaModi'a, Yated Ne'eman I do not read.
Yedyioth is left -leaning, but its columns are open to right-wing writers, same goes for Ma'ariv and even HaAretz. There is absolutely no repression of the rightist opinion here, provided it does not include open racism as it so often does. Some Israeli rightists can even write in English, and good examples of this are the Jerusalem Post, that actually became a lot better by becoming more informative and less rightist-ideological, and Arutz 7, the settlers' bugle.  If the leftist discourse was as pervasive as you think it is, and the other side was as supressed as you assert, Yossi Beilin would be PM, not Olmert.

 
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Ezekiel       1/7/2007 3:41:07 AM
I know alot about Israel b/c it is trully intriguing, I'm sorry if my writing is not fit for strategypage conversation....I will try and do better. Well we are veering off topic, remember this is about avigdor and his supposed uber nationalist quasi messianic ilk as you or many others would put it. But let me respond to just a few things you assirted in your above paragraph....

You mentioned that it is not true that there are only three
papers in Israel you mentioned haredi papers (i call them pamphlets) and arutz sheva and the j post. When  talking about large points, such as I was, when I tried to say that "Israel's political spectrum is askewed" I am making generalization's which is like paradigms not everything fits with in it, but it gives you more then it takes away meaning, when i say there are only three newspapers in Israel it means,  three that are nationwide accepted by the mainstream of Israeli's. The J post is strictly french/english and it has become centrist after brett stephens left for the wall street journal around 2 years ago. The arutz 7 is a perfect example of the leftism in Israel. If you remember they had a radio station on a barge in int. waters and the Israeli justice community targeted it as pirating the airwaves and shut it down, now it uses the internet under . There is supposed free press in Israel, and yes you will see a rightist editorial, but its surrounded by leftist col-umns/editorials. In interviews its very subtle, but its their in how they approach a rightist immediately putting him on the defensive. The media very rarely put a real right winger thinker on panels instead they put their mascots that are easy to debunk andmade to look foolish... These are just subtleties. The fact is there are three main hebrew speaking papers and they are leftist mouthpieces, if you choose disagree with me that's your choice.

You didn't address the justice system and/or the academia in Israel-, but no matter I'm sure you find them to be even keeled in conservatives vs.
progressives or even better they are all crazy and therefore an opinion isn't worth it. The fact of the matter is that for me, when one tells me he is an Israeli, I know you won't like it in the slightest, but i generally believe Israelis have been force fed all this leftist pseudo progressive garbage from womb on up. I don't want to say you are brainwashed, but you have been exposed to l-ong held dogma's and i think its very hard once, exposed to liberate yourself from it and completely think outside the box. The fact that you believe that sharon was a centrist, though he ethnically deported and ethnically cleansed land won in a defensive war of 9000 jews from gaza is quite absurd. Mind you doing it in the midst of an ongoing struggle with a genocidal jihadist population, but this is besides the point. Israel has not been introduced to a real rightwing party a real jewish conservative party. I'm not a kachnick and I don't agree with him,
 
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Ezekiel       1/14/2007 7:51:07 AM
shirrush where did you go? I guess your non response is a form of acquiesence to my argument.
 
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Ezekiel       3/6/2007 7:41:19 AM
so far he has conducted himself pretty well since joining the government. Proving a blow the extremist argument he voted for the appointment  of the first arab cabinet minister. If he was the real uber nationalist that he was all cracked up to be he would have left the government and made a loud protest....
 
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battar    Can't throw very far   3/6/2007 4:22:52 PM
What has all his to do with military discussions?
I agree that I wouldn't trust Mr Liberman farther than I can throw him, but he is far from being the only untrustworthy self-interested bigot in the Knesset.  Problem with these types are, after they vent their hatred of foriegners, they go for their own people. 
What has Shirrush got against homosexuals ? I personally know only 2 homosexuals, and I don't like them becasue they smoke, but I am not bothered if they want to parade in Jerusalem or anywhere else. Why should I be? It is precisely because of bigots like Shirrush (well he did display intolerance, and call them poofters) that they parade and make a big noise abaout it, to show Shirrush that his childish intolerance will backfire and come back and bite him. If he would accept them as they are, they wouldn't have to make a song and dance about it all.  The problem I have is with the religous extremists, whose paemts never showed the color of the sky of the planet they live on, and didn't teach them to accept the world more or less as it is.  A certain percentage of the population is homosexual. A certain percentage of Jews do not respect the sabbath. It isn't a crime. Thats how the world is, and we should teach our children that it's just something we have to put up with, like the weather. 
Judging from previous posts, I thought Shirrush was a bit above such pettiness. I also thought he was an atheist, and those types are usually more tolerant than believers.
I would rather have the company of homosexuals than adulterers anyway. If you are going to take a religious view, notice that adultery is mentioned in the 10 commandmets, next to theft and murder.  Homosexuality isn't so high on the list of tickets to hell.
 
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Shirrush    Hey Hatzkel!   3/7/2007 2:59:05 PM

shirrush where did you go? I guess your non response is a form of acquiesence to my argument.
I'm still here.
I don't disagree with you much on the principle, but your grasp of the Israeli reality is biased by your perception of a leftist  stranglehold on the local political debate, that can easily be explained by the fact that  you are detecting what you can from a distance, and this does not include the actual atmosphere of this country. As a matter of fact, there is no political debate, nobody thinks or talks about ideology, and the recent spate of multi-drug resistant Klebsiella pneumoniae -related deaths in our hospitals is what's making the headlines these days, since the public has just discovered what had been on the table worldwide for quite a while, that nosocomial infections exist, and that they do kill. The Israeli public, and its media too in a way, seem to have lost interest in politics for the time being, a trend that was already evident with the appallingly low turnout of the last elections.
We are fed up with stinking politics and our malodorously mediocre politicians and prefer to ignore them, but life goes on, unemployment is dropping, and TASE is booming, so WTF?

(Today's good news as per Arutz 2: Acanthobrama telavivensis, a uniquely endemic species of Shad, has just been reintroduced to the upper Yarqon stream, that is being reclaimed and cleaned up. So you see, the Zionists are going to restitute Eretz Israel's coastal rivers to the Jewish People after all! Yikes and gadzooks!)

Also, to answer your previous post, I am still firmly convinced that the defeat that Sharon handed to his erstwhile fundie allies was worth the effort, since a majority of Israelis had had enough of these ugly reverse-antisemites ordering our army around and mortgaging our future for their messianic delusions, and it was time for them to get the message. The benefits of leaving Gaza and exposing the Palestinians for what they are, a destructive ethnic non-entity based on violence and hatred and unable to even manage a city, are an additional prize you too should be grateful for.

There also was this nice scandal farce about Avigdog's dominatrix girlfriend Esterina Tartman (isn't her family name just right?), exposed for lying about her academic credentials and for fraudulently obtaining disability compensations just as she was going to be nominated to the cabinet as Tourism Minister. This is the face of Lieberman's party: petty mendacity and pervasive mediocrity, that goes well in general with the nationialistic and hatemongering  demagoguery: who needs another Likud, asks Average Yossi, while he shrugs and moves on with his own life...


 
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Shirrush    Battar   3/7/2007 3:41:35 PM

What has Shirrush got against homosexuals ? I personally know only 2 homosexuals, and I don't like them becasue they smoke, but I am not bothered if they want to parade in Jerusalem or anywhere else. Why should I be? It is precisely because of bigots like Shirrush (well he did display intolerance, and call them poofters) that they parade and make a big noise abaout it, to show Shirrush that his childish intolerance will backfire and come back and bite him. If he would accept them as they are, they wouldn't have to make a song and dance about it all.  The problem I have is with the religous extremists, whose paemts never showed the color of the sky of the planet they live on, and didn't teach them to accept the world more or less as it is.  A certain percentage of the population is homosexual. A certain percentage of Jews do not respect the sabbath. It isn't a crime. Thats how the world is, and we should teach our children that it's just something we have to put up with, like the weather. 
Judging from previous posts, I thought Shirrush was a bit above such pettiness. I also thought he was an atheist, and those types are usually more tolerant than believers.

I would rather have the company of homosexuals than adulterers anyway. If you are going to take a religious view, notice that adultery is mentioned in the 10 commandmets, next to theft and murder.  Homosexuality isn't so high on the list of tickets to hell.

So I'm a bigot! Priceless! I'm sure you won't mind if I call you dumbass now Battar?
Indeed I'm an atheist if that means anything anymore, and I would indeed object if I was seeing people being discriminated for their sexual preferences, or for whatever they do in their private lives which is no one else's business.
But in a country in which normative (if blundersome) male heterosexual behavior is becoming a crime (see Ramon's case), I also have a right to feel sexually harassed by people flouting their sexuality in public. If I, and you too Battar, need to go underground just to be heterosexual males, and are at constant risk of being dragged to a criminal court of justice in which we'll need to prove our innocence, by any female whose signals we have misinterpreted, I feel bloody entitled to resent any public demonstration of sexual behavior by anyone!
If I can't legally and openly be a d!ck, why should anybody else be allowed to advertise himself sexually, uh?
Even in denial of freedom, there's got to be some equality!


 
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