One more time, it all sums up to one thing, whether you like it or not.. DID JESUS REALLY MAKE THESE MIRACLES OR NOT? ARE WE SURE THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY WITH HIM OR WAS HE JUST ANOTHER WACKO, LIKE THE THOUSANDS OF WACKOS WHO HAVE STARTED CULTS IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY?? Talking about the rest is a WASTE.. OF.. TIME...

you call that evidence? you're kidding me or what? What about the 20 millions of russians who died during that same war? NONSENSE! there are ENDLESS examples that people believe what they want to believe.. What about the 6 millions jews who died in the camps? huh? don't you think they prayed? Not many survived!! So what do I conclude? That god wanted to exterminate the Jews????

I've had many problems with priest.. they can't seem to be able to think logicaly, they contradict each other every other sentence.. A good example that I remember is when I was talking to a priest about whether or not you could kill someone in some circumstances. He said that yes, I said that no. It made no sense WHATSOEVER what he said.. Bottom line is.. people believe what the want to believe, they interpret the bible how they want, because they like it better this way or that way.. when there are contradiction, they make up a super-complex theory that makes no sense at all to try to save their ass.. When it is obvious to them that what they say is illogical, they reply, it's the faith you can't understand, or you can't understand, it's god.. you can't understand my a$$, it's you who can't understand that there's nothing to understand...

So this is proof that x, y or z historical factors can account for the survival of a religion, even if x, y or z, have nothing to do WHATSOEVER if that religion is true or not. And btw, who tells you that it's not god who gave them that moeney to survive and crash planes into buildings? That's what they think I'm sure.. You can see god whereever you want...

A religion spreads like anything else. Because it's more adapted or stronger than the others, that's all. If the christians had been a few aztecs with arcs and arrows against powerfull aggressors who believed in fire or whatever, do you think the christian religion would have survived? Do you think billions of people would be christians now if christians had done exactly what they were supposed to do, that is not kill anyone, when the muslims tried to invade them I don't know how many times???

"...not to believe everything, but "test" what one is told" I agree on that, elcid. But I think the big problem is, that too many people DON'T test what they are told. Possibly, because from a time, people were "conditioned" to not question the authority of the church in general. So that has been my life's battle: testing all the people who make claims to be religiously in the right frame of mind to PROVE they are indeed worthy of being listened to. Despite Hellfie's questions of Christ, at least Christ was not afraid to prove His legitimacy through the very miracles in question. Show me someone who can raise the dead, walk on water, feed a thousand people with a handful of fish and a few loaves, and cure a blind man, then certainly there is fair cause for me to listen and believe (I don't have much concern of the water-to-wine thing, because I don't drink.) Seems to me, if more churches (in general again, by my own stereotypes, I'll admit) have to prove their authority and take accountability/responsibility for their actions (justification), then people would not be falling victim to the false prophets and "fake" churches. I see nothing wrong in challenging someone who claims to be an authority on X subject to prove they are indeed someone of authority. And Hellfire: you are indeed wise also to do the same. When men and women no longer see their authority is being questioned, then they often start to exploit us through deception..

No, I don't call it evidence. I call it a story. But even a story can point to the truth. I'm not trying to get you to believe in God, my friend, only understand the rationale for the faith of others... Essentially you will believe what you choose. But there's no such thing as an aithiest on a sinking ship. Cheers Uchi

For the record, these 2 kind of go hand-in-hand: Epistemology, Introduction http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/EPISTEMI.html The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science http://chronicle.com/free/v49/i21/21b02001.htm an older article, but there is legitimacy in using the same (or similar) "tests" to prove other claims. Of course, everything throughout existence does adhere to sciences in some form, even if beyond our measure (and back in the time of Christ, things like other suns and planets, nuclear particle physics, electronics, and bio-engineering were beyond the measure of "common" people of that time.) Indeed we should test the legitimacy of claims people represent. But there are times when logical, scientific means cannot explain the subject, because it is simply beyond our measures to effectively guage. So indeed, there is a very, very fine line, in some instances, between faith and foolishness..

>> But I think the big problem is, that too many people DON'T test what they are told. This is exactly why religions spread and continue to exist from generation to generation. >> And Hellfire: you are indeed wise also to do the same. When men and women no longer see their authority is being questioned, then they often start to exploit us through deception. I try to be objective and think about it logically. If I don't think logicaly then where am I going? And like I said, I know that there are philosophical questions that I have no answer too. But I don't make the mistake that most people do, which is to beleive in the first thing I'm told and delude myself. Another thing is that I'm opened-minded to anything. As long as someone comes up with tangible proof of what he says I don't see why I wouldn't take what he says into account. I'm sorry but concerning religion, where is the proof? Even if it's true that Jesus walked on the water, there is no proof of it, so how do you want me to believe it?? I'm sorry I can't do that, it makes no sense.. I repeat.. the probablity that someone walks on the water is VERY low, the probablility that someone resucitates is EXTREMELY LOW, so low in fact that the chances taht it's all bs is MUCH higher that the chances that it's true. So how can people possibly "believe"? It makes no sense.. the only explanation is that they WANT to believe it. And the fact that billions of people believe it is not an indicator of the fact that it's true..

You will note that religions fit most of those, including the christian religion..