Every time a terror attack happens EVEN when it's against fellow Muslims I hear next to NOTHING from the moderates. No outcry, no firm condemnation. All I hear is some very mild short dishonest critique after which the occasion is used to bash the West and Israel at length. So that either makes moderate Muslims in Western nations where they aren't oppressed too chicken to firmly condemn fanatics. Or that makes Muslims supporters of these fanatics who deep down actually agree with them. Every time this happened a bit my respect got thrown away like it was worthless. And now that same Islam that threw respect away demands respect. Yeah right!

"Americans must respect Islam" Why? No, I'm not being dismissive. Think about the word "respect". What kinds of things do you respect? I respect family members of previous generations that started with very little, and with a lot of self sacrifice and hard work built up a stable base for future generations so they wouldn't have to suffer as much. Similarily, I respect a world renowned Oboist even if I don't like the Oboe, because I can respect the hard work involved, and the achievement of mastery. In these examples I respect because something difficult was accomplished. There might be another reason to respect something though. You might live near an autowrecking yard. If you've ever walked close to the fence, I can tell you this: you probably respect the dog that lives there, out of fear. So I respect hard work, accomplishments, and power (this might be a different form of respect, but its very real). Going back to the original statement: "Americans must respect Islam" Why? What has Islam achieved through hard work that americans should respect? Or is it that americans should be afraid of Islam? It might be safe to say that "Islam needs to achieve something real to gain respect from Americans" --IronSeeker.

I'd actually prefer this thread be closed (if that's possible) because it is getting rather nasty on both sides. I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions before that happens though: 1a) "You think cutting off of the heads is bad because the mujihaadin does it with his own hands instead of with a missille. There is no difference in effect though American fighter pilots don't get their hands dirty." Wrong. That's totally a completely wrong. I do not think that cutting off someone's head is in and of itself a bad thing. It isn't (for the most part) important how someone dies. What matters is why. 1b) The implication of the above statement is that Americans kill with missiles and bombs because they are cowards are because they 'don't want to get thier hands dirty'. This is wrong, and worse it is dangerously wrong. It is obvious that you have not read American history. The main reason Americans kill with missiles and bombs is because they can. But, there is something very important that you are missing. Americans kill with missiles and bombs because they don't like to kill. One of the main purposes of attacking someone with an airplane is to demonstrate that they cannot hope to win, and that they best surrender now before the war continues and things get worse for them. The US hopes by demonstrating that it is strong, that its enemies will wisely surrender and it can be merciful and stop killing people. If the US merely wanted to kill people, it could have easily wiped out the entire population by now without even resorting to nuclear weapons. But, because we would really rather not kill alot of people we are restraining ourselves because we are still feeling merciful. When innocents die, you will hear alot of hollering about how we are making war on Islam. This wrong and dangerously wrong. We do our best not to kill anyone who isn't taking up arms against us and threating to kill us, and we regret killing anyone who isn't. If we were in fact making war on Islam (or if Islam foolishly decides to make war on us), what we would do would be far more terrible. 1c) The converse implication is that the people who cut off a man's head were acting bravely. This is also wrong and dangerously wrong. The people that cut off Nick Berg's head were murderers and cowards. Nick Berg was not a soldier. He did not carry a weapon. He didn't even work for the Americans - in fact he had been taken into custody by the Americans because they wanted to know what he was doing in Iraq. He was just an American merchant in Iraq on business. The men that the pilots in the airplanes are trying to kill are armed and violent. 2a) "Maybe atrocities okay with you Swhitebull" No, they are not. Not with Swhitebull and not with Americans in general. That is why Americans denounce them, and put on trial before a judge those that have committed them. That is our point. In America, when our soldiers have done wrong, they are punished. Do our enemies do the same? 2b) "...and these homosexual acts Americans did with prisoners on camera is just shameful." Agreed. We think that they are shameful too. We think that they are so shameful that its quite possible that some people involved (if they prove to be of high enough rank and if the court decides that they were acting with malice) could get hanged. But, at the least, those responcible will be punished. When your police torture people, who punishes them? And where was your outrage when the murderers in Fallujah shamed themselves by dragging the corpses of who they had murdered through the streets, and danced in the blood because they were so proud of the evil that they had done? Where was your since of shame then? Those that they murdered had done nothing more than try to bring shipments of food to the poor of Fallujah. They weren't soldiers. They weren't attacking anyone. Where was your outrage then? 2c) "Then the west should know that homosexuality is a sin, and the modesty must be protected." You speak of 'the West' as if it was one thing, when really it is many. Many in the west do think that homosexuality is a sin, and think it shameful that anyone would cause anyone else to act like homosexuals or that they would take pictures of such perversion. But the west is not one thing, and lest we end up warring continually over this thing or that, we don't approve of the killing of or persecution of people over things like homosexuality - whether we believe it wrong or not. That just leds to sin more grevious than the homosexuality itself, and doesn't do anything to stop people from lusting after one another. 2d) "Parading Muslim men naked before women is shameful..." Whoa there. If parading men naked before women is shameful, then it is shameful whether the men are Muslim or not. This was not an crime only because the men were Muslims. 2e) "...the American woman will be tempted to commit adultery we see now

"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you." Was Yoda talking about the Middle East? ..

Celebrim your post is just showing me that to many of you americans have been religious indoctrinated just like the arabs.

"your post is just showing me that to many of you americans have been religious indoctrinated just like the arabs" That may be true.. but at least the American indoctrinated fellows haven't decided that strapping explosives to themselves and chasing after a school bus is the best way to practice their religion...

We Americans have had our fair share of "questionable" people trying to be god's voice. Maybe in middle eastern countries the government-controlled media just doesn't show them to you. Do yourself a websearch about David Koresh and Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker (try "televagelist"); you'll see we got problems in our religions just like anyone else...

Mabey demands for respect and freedom from humiliation will weigh heavier after muslims stop commiting several of the most vile forms of human savagery ever practiced.

Apparently, Platypus, those muslims never heard of the "do unto others" thing...

Americans will respect islam when islam, as a whole, respects itself enough to cleanse itself of violence and intolerance. Presently, at best, “peaceful muslims” turn a blind eye to violence, slavery, and bigotry. etc. More often, muslims applaud and cheer at the atrocities committed in the name of jihad, except when committed against other muslims. Then it’s back to the blind eye. ilpars: Kemal understood this. Turkey’s lack of cooperation with the Coalition was not religion based. The investigation into the UN oil scandal will end a few political careers there. Occident: Your reference to “pre-historic” religion is as accurate as any explanation expressed, “stone age” might also describe the narrow intolerance of islam. FJV: My only disagreement would be that the original level of respect you had for islam was unfounded. You are not losing your respect; you are being made aware that it was never deserved. doggtag: “Arafat a homosexual pedaphile? I thought he was Muslim, not Catholic” No one joined in because it wasn’t funny. That’s the same attitude muslims are using to indict the entire US military. I am reminded by this thread of a conversation I had with an Egyptian customer in Manhattan 20 years ago. He was a Coptic Christian and as a student demonstrated against Nasser. He was arrested and imprisoned for a time. (I don’t remember exactly how long, but almost a year seems accurate) With regularity, guards would take him from his cell to another room, tie him to a table, then beat the bottom of his feet with rubber hoses until they bled, or he passed out. How often this happened would depend on how quickly he healed from the previous beating. About every 2 or 3 weeks he thought, but couldn’t be sure, as there was no way to track time. He remembered the waiting was worse than the beating. They didn’t want information or a confession, they just beat him, and everyone else. After being released he immigrated to the US and when I knew him, was a successful business owner, who loved the US. He is probably laughing his a$$ off watching American TV report on the “scandal” at Abu Ghraib. Lastly, aside from the individual bestial behavior of islamic terrorists, I believe that islam as a whole is committed to eternal warfare with the rest of the world’s cultures unless it cleans house. The Reformation propelled Europe into the Industrial Age and, for good or bad, Western Civilization into the 21st Century. (I know, simplistic, but used for the purpose of comparison.) Unless islam experiences a similar catharsis, it will have to be destroyed by those it has vowed to destroy.