Thanks AmK, for your contribution to reality & the citations you provide -- an eye opening document worth saving for future reference! In fact I may set up a card table after church Sunday and hand out copies...maybe I'll wear a Fez and a BIG mustache and serve Arabee Coffee! OW >>Muslims...because of what is in their other holy literature, there are basically two books, the Quran and the "Life" - more or less a biography of Muhammad - which in spite of the fact you don't hear about it, is more important than the Quran in terms of a source of ideas. You are supposed to imitate Muhammad, as a Christian is supposed to imitate Christ. Bukhari:V4B52N220 “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been made victorious with terror.’” Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.” Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.” Ishaq:326 “If you come upon them, deal so forcibly as to terrify those who would follow, that they may be warned. Make a severe example of them by terrorizing Allah’s enemies.” Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.” Ishaq:588 “When the Apostle descends on your land none of your people will be left when he leaves.” Tabari IX:42 “We have been dealt a situation from which there is no escape. You have seen what Muhammad has done. Arabs have submitted to him and we do not have the strength to fight. You know that no herd is safe from him. And no one even dares go outside for fear of being terrorized.” Ishaq:326 “Allah said, ‘No Prophet before Muhammad took booty from his enemy nor prisoners for ransom.’ Muhammad said, ‘I was made victorious with terror. The earth was made a place for me to clean. I was given the most powerful words. Booty was made lawful for me. I was given the power to intercede. These five privileges were awarded to no prophet before me.’” Ishaq:327 “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’” Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.” Ishaq:510 “When the Apostle looked down on Khaybar he told his Companions, ‘O Allah, Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. Forward in the name of Allah.’ He used to say this of every town he raided.” Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet offered the Fajr Prayer [Prayer of Fear] near Khaybar when it was still dark. He said, ‘Allahu-Akbar!’ [Allah is Greatest] Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.’ Then the inhabitants came out running on their roads. The Prophet had their men killed; their children and woman were taken as captives.” Bukhari:V9B87N127 “The Prophet said, ‘I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror.’” Ishaq:517 “Khaybar was stormed by the Apostle’s squadron, fully armed, powerful and strong. It brought certain humiliation with Muslim men in its midst. We attacked and they met their doom. Muhammad conquered the Jews in fighting that day as they opened their eyes to our dust.” Tabari VIII:116/Ishaq:511 “So Muhammad began seizing their herds and their property bit by bit. He conquered home by home. The Messenger took some people captive, including Safiyah and her two cousins. The Prophet chose Safiyah for himself.” Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their children and woman taken captive.” Tabari VIII:129 “After the Messenger had finished with the Khaybar Jews, Allah cast terror into the hearts of the Jews in Fadak when they received news of what Allah had brought upon Khaybar. Fadak became the exclusive property of Allah’s Messenger.” Tabari VIII:133 “The raiding party went to Tha’labah. One of Muhammad’s slaves, said, ‘Prophet, I know where Tha’labah can be taken by surprise.’ So Muhammad sent him with 130 men. They raided the town and drove off camels and sheep, bringing them back to Medina.” Tabari VIII:138 “Muhammad carried arms, helmets, and spears. He led a hundred horses, appointing Bahir to be in charge of the weapons and Maslamah to be in charge of the horses. When the Quraysh received word of this, it frightened them.” Qur’an 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made

>>...when you enter insulting which is why I am so against...OnWatch and Applecidarus...--ilpars<< Listen up my lil spotted friend {term of endearment 'leopard'}, you get back what you dish out! You post(as you often do) historical distortions and personal attack, and attempt to pose them as facts of a matter -- sometimes buddy, flowery diplomatic doublespeak will not serve to clear the air you stink-up! This is not Cambridge or the UN, we know what barking spiders are in the USA! Yes, Ilpars you often insult me and others. The difference between you and me is that when you're pelted you whine like a lil stinker! Whereas people like me and 'cider blowoff your lame insults and engage you on the fallacies inherent in your presentations. Toughen up ilpars, and go visit with a Turk sailor or two who put to sea with American Blue Jackets -- you might learn something! On Watch

Yes, that sentence to Teneighty was a little cheavaunist. I admit. Sometimes I have a bad temper. But that does dot change the fact that I did not say the sentence you originally mentioned. As none of these sentences related to it, I think you agree that I did not. Bad memory. It happens to all time to time. Terrorists are enemies of Turkey. They killed our citizens before. They will kill later. So, what are we discussing.

English is not my native language. Maybe considering this OnWatch may choice to use less slang. Oh. I believe OnWatch tried to insult me again. But he just disgracing hisself. "One who has no respect to hisself, respects nothing" Turkish proverb.

I took that from a very interesting website: http://www.prophetofdoom.net/ I think someone either sent me that link or posted it here. Lots and lots of Islam in its own sick words there.

Communists are explicitly terrorists, and they also explicitly do not believe in God. Yet communism has all the traits of a religion and it requires great faith to believe in it. The history of human politics is a dreadfully bloody one, and religions have often played a role in that history. The great religions are pretty much all related to each other - Juisism is the Parent of Christianity which is the parent of Islam which is the parent of the Ba'hai faith. The Sikhs say there are four valid paths to God - Jewish, Christian, Islamic and Hindu. If you read the Baghvad Gita (it will give you a migrane because you must learn new "linguistic operators" - verbs) you will be shocked to find it has very familiar conclusions; Do not kill, to do not steal, do not lie, etc. But every coin has two sides. If one can study a religion for its great ideas, one can also elect to be a fundamentalist. The first step down this road is usually "we have all the truth, everyone else is so wrong they are going ot hell." From here you can go on to make all sorts of outrageous claims. On the historical record, probably the worst offenders along these lines are Christians. And on the historical record, except during its explosive first two years, Islam has been rather passive. It was Islamic culture that communicated the great ideas of the orient to Europe - in addition to facilitating the spice trade. [In the era before refrigeration, pepper was traded for gold, strait across, ounce for ounce - because you could preserve meat with it.] Islam gave the west its first real ability to navigate out of sight of land, and it had navigation charts we are unable to explain in an era before satellites. It gave us the Zero (from India) - not knowing where they got it we still say we use "Arabic numerals." This thousand years of trade and information sharing was not primarily the interaction of hostile civilizations. And the Crusades leave the West with little excuse to say aggression was an Islamic monopoly. The people who advocated and led the Crusades had less than holy motives and behaviors. They are no small part of the memory of Islamic cultures, and documentary evidence indicates the attack on Spain is seen as payback - not for the support of Spain of the US operation in Iraq - but for the reconquista (which ended in 1492). The reconquista was barbaric, and fired by a religious zeal, in senses you might properly consider to be fanatical and terroristic, in todays terms. It is possible, if you wish, to condemn all religeons, and the secular faiths like communism which function as religions do, because of the actions fanatics have justified in their name. But it is wrong to be selective about it - to pick on just one of them for just a few offenses in a short time and to ignore all the others for much more serious offenses over much longer periods of time. But at least such a general condemnation would be somewhat logical. It would still be wrong - because the picture of religion of the non-secular sort has much more to it than just the acts of fanatics in its name. It is possible to find a lot of actual pacifists in these religions - more than in secular life - and a great many who oppose fanaticism and take very practical views about using force - as it should be limited and justified. To ignore them majority case - and for the record the majority case is for reasonable people even Islam in this age - is to wrongly pre judge persons who, in fact, do not diserve to be criticized. It is much better to oppose all fanatics, criminals and terrorists, whatever they claim to believe, whatever they say their motives are. At least then you condemn only the guilty and siderving, without prejudice.

you're right, pharisee. all the bad muslims died alongside our babies and grandmothers at the WTC.what are we thinking? i agree with the first sentence, though..

I look at Islam in much the same way (and with much the same disdain) as I do communism. Without getting into the ugly details of why I personally oppose both of those inferior belief systems, I couldn't bring myself to say something like "not all communists want to eliminate private property rights" any more that I could say "not all Muslims want to wage jihad until the infidels submit to Allah." The words "communist" and "Muslim" have specific meanings that can't be ignored. At some point in the discussion, words have to have a meaning. I hate communism. The existence of this hatred of communism is not dependent upon the existence of communists. If there were no communists, or if everyone on Earth but me were communist, I'd still hate communism the same. Islam for me is the same way. I will hate Islam with the death rattle of my last breath. And while I'd rather see Muslims reject Islam than die for it, it's just the same that my contempt for that belief system is bound to "offend" Muslims, as much as Islamic contempt for non-Muslims is bound to "offend" just about everyone else. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to ask the Islamic world to understand that the rest of the human race is inviting them to grow up. Or get spanked.

>>>...we know what barking spiders are in the USA!--OW<<< >>I believe OnWatch tried to insult me again.-- ilps<< Nah Ilpars, I was just trying to help you build a database of colloquial American expressions. They'll be useful to you if you ever get invited to State Dept. c0cktail parties with Brother Erdogan - there's lotsa "barking spiders" over there at Foggy Bottom... http://www.getodd.com/stuf/stupid/spider/spider.html OW

But it is too much. This sort of attitude can only warm the hearts of Osama et al. It can only increase recruiting of enemy agents, worldwide. The heart of your attitude lies in your false belief that Islam is what the radicals say it is. While there are different species of communists, they all agree on some basic things. But this is not true of the great religeons. Fundamentalists have almost nothing in common with devout traditionalists or with casual followers in all of them. There are "Islamic" cultures where people go to mosque less often than American Christians do, where they have no idea what the mainstream beliefs are, much less the radical ones. A person says "I am a Muslim" in the Balkans because, well, that is what his parents said. It does not mean he is your enemy. If your prejudice makes him that, it is a mistake, and a grave one.