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Subject: Americans must respect Islam
salaam al-aqaaid    5/13/2004 10:18:35 AM
The outrageous atrocities commited by Americans at the Abu al-Grayyib prison complex speaks to a need for the United States Americans to give sensetivity training to its entire military so that they will no longer offind Muslims with the contemptious use of women as prison guards and unsavery adiction to homosexual pornographies. These things are offinsive to the Muslims community. Have you no shame? You must remove all women and homosexuals from contact with Muslim prisoners. This is offinsive.
 
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Thomas    appleciderus   7/1/2004 11:37:26 AM
Now we are getting somewhere: There is a differnce between what the muslims holy book says, what different clerics say and what the individual muslim thinks. I will concur, that it is about time muslims stood up and denounced clerical hate-mongering, demonstrated against named clerics on the streets - as danish citizen are apt to demonstrate outside nazies home. It is the duty of the muslims to keep order in their own house, just as we must denounce anti-semites when we meet them - we are good at that; not quite so good when it comes to old communists still occupying high positions. Muslims should consider where they are: Just as I don't serve pork to muslims or jews, them demanding a change of scool uniforms to conform with their standard is in very poor taste.
 
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DirtySanchez    RE:Americans must respect Islam   7/1/2004 9:13:07 PM
Hey Sal, I have a question: Why? Should we respect beheadings in the name of Islam? Should we respect the destruction of the Afghan Buddhas in the name of Islam? Why must we respect these types of acts and why isn't anybody demanding that Islam respect America?
 
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appleciderus    Reading and comments   7/1/2004 11:31:48 PM
ilpars, you can turn attention from the point faster than a hooker can turn a ten-dollar trick. It doesn’t matter if he (elcid) is not muslim. The point is…wait…let me go VERY slow this time so you can’t hide behind another “appleciderus is a bigot” defense. A heinous murder (often multiple murders) is committed. The murderer acknowledges his crime, and excuses it by publicly announcing he has committed this crime in the name of “islam” (or jihad). He may use audio recording or videotape. He (they) may not use the group or organization name they used the last time they committed a heinous crime, but he (they) WILL announce that they committed the crime in the name of islam. (or jihad) This is not debatable, it happens regularly. Got it? I don’t make it up! It happened, and continues to happen. Then I say: “look! This guy just murdered people and says he murdered people in the name of islam.” (or jihad) Then you (and elcid) say I am a religious bigot because muslims are “peaceful” and murder is against islamic tenets”. Then I said: “wait! I didn’t say the murders were committed in the name of islam, the murderer(s) said the murders were committed in the name of islam”. Then I add: “muslims should stop allowing murder to be committed in their name”. Then you said: “he (elcid) is a Christian soldier”, and I should learn to read. Why would you say that? Why will you not respond to my accusation that the murderer proudly announced that the loss of innocent lives was because he has been promised virgins in paradise? Not by me. Not by you. He was told by clerics he believes speak for islam, just as you believe islam is peaceful. Your efforts to absolve islam from the Herculean responsibility of cleaning it’s own stables is becoming comical. Do you want the rest of the world to clean up islam? You know, the 1% that are terrorists? Eventually, that is what will happen. As laughable are your statements that “We Turks” hold the US to a higher standard…” and your assurance that Iraqi terrorists will not execute Turkish hostages because the terrorists know what “We Turks” will do if they harm the hostages. It seems ilpars, that you have two standards for behavior: one for non-islamic Westerners, and another for muslims. You remind me of the poster that claimed Saudi Arabia offered religious freedom to Christians as long as the Christians worshipped in the privacy of their own homes and made no public demonstration of a non-islamic faith (wearing a religious ornament), but: France and Florida were guilty of religious and cultural bigotry for expecting muslim women to uncover their faces for identification purposes. Is their no end to your duplicity? Why don’t you just admit that until muslims refute violence en mass, they are guilty of the “sin of omission”, or worse.
 
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appleciderus    RE:prison for a poem?   7/1/2004 11:41:56 PM
Imagine the US had a State Religion. The religious leaders preached once a week that unless the elected leaders obeyed the religious leaders, people were sanctioned (by religion) to overthrow the elected leaders. Would a leader similar to Kemal Attaturk seize the reigns of the US government and contain the religious leaders efforts, or would a political figure appeal to the religious populous by subjugating his political beliefs to the controlling clerics?
 
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doggtag    State religions   7/2/2004 1:25:34 AM
Nicely argued yet again, appleciderus. And to you last post: I'm sure people the likes of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson ( and no small score of televangelists to play henchmen ) would just LOOOVE to be in charge of an American "state religion", representing their version of god's will and god's law for all of us to follow. My guess would be, despite how "pretty" they sound on TV, it would in all seriousness be no different than Europe's Dark Ages or the very activities going on in Islam controlled areas now: you follow without question, do our will, or you will disappear. One saving grace America still tries to hold at its heart is Freedom of Religion. For people who never read it, it effectively says that "you are free to believe what you want, and I am free to believe what I want." But when you cross the line and start to infringe upon my right to believe what I want, there are a score of other Rights and Amendments that allow me to effectively and legally remind you that you are no better nor have any more Rights than I do. Not all Islamic supporting nations can say they offer the same. It's really a sad, crying shame that there are muslims here in the US, and other non-predominantly muslim nations in Europe, who still think we should all be respectful of their religion, yet they keep so little courtesy and respect for the rest of us... Not all, but enough to make is be concerned with our safety. Especially when such an openly respect-demanding religion has little desire to show any public accountability, recognisance, or restitution for the deeds done by some of its followers. And just as their have been a fair share of christians who deicided it was not their job to correct the world "for god", it is obvious there are a sufficient amount of muslims who have chosen the same mentality. Perhaps, in their quest to live lives of "righteouness and purity", to avoid any shed blood on their hands, they just keep turning their backs on the problem until it becomes so much worse that someone else like, oh, the US military!, decides to clean it up for them. "Don't go blaming Public Health and Welfare for showing up at your doorstep to clean up your filthy yard that you got too lazy to take care of yourself." (I'm not striking out specifically to insult muslims or christians: this is just my observation that they both have their share of problems. And even if christianity in general tried to start cleaning its act up years ago, it too still has a considerable way to go, just like Islam.).
 
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ilpars    RE:Reading and comments   7/2/2004 2:31:13 AM
"A heinous murder (often multiple murders) is committed. The murderer acknowledges his crime, and excuses it by publicly announcing he has committed this crime in the name of “islam” (or jihad). He may use audio recording or videotape. He (they) may not use the group or organization name they used the last time they committed a heinous crime, but he (they) WILL announce that they committed the crime in the name of islam. (or jihad)" They are murderers. They deserve what other criminals deserve. I believe everybody on this board agrees on this. My objection to you is always the same you do not read what others say. Me and ElCid agreed that these murderers have been promised Paradise in where there will be lots of beauties in it when they kill enemies of the Islam (Who are all non-fundementalists). We add that this is not written in Kuran and Fundementalists clerics are lying to their followers. But you fail to read this. "your assurance that Iraqi terrorists will not execute Turkish hostages because the terrorists know what “We Turks” will do if they harm the hostages." I have never said this. Fundementalists killed Turks many times before. They will kill again in the future. Are you start to making up things now? First relearn how to read and stop making up things.
 
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ilpars    Applecidarus   7/2/2004 3:16:08 AM
And if Applecidarus have ever really read this forum; he would have seen that both me and Elcid are highly against Fundementalism. He is probably more than me as he fought against them. We have honestly tried to inform you about the realites of Islam world. If you do not want to know, it is your choice. But when you enter insulting which is why I am so against both OnWatch and Applecidarus; that makes me angry. I do not know that much about Western culture but in Turkish culture insulting is not taken lightly. That is why I never insult anyone. I expect the same from others. In many previous posts I have said that radical Fundementalism is a cancer in Islam World which have to be destroyed. Turkey has cleaned his house and helping USA in Afganistan. Iraq government asked specifically they do not want Turkish troops in Iraq. It is understable. If Turkish troops had entered, they would have cleaned every PKK camp in North Iraq. It would be an additional problem for new Iraq government. That is as much as what Turkey can do. Arab countries are all sovereign states. If Turkey had tried something more it could be seen as a Turkish effort to resurrect Ottoman Empire. To be seen as agressor is the last thing Turkey ever wants.
 
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elcid    RE:Warning - this is not allowed - El Cid   7/2/2004 6:11:55 AM
Technically, of course, religeous predudice has nothing to do with race. And Islam has people of all races, so an anti Islamic prejudice is really not a race based hatred. But in American English we use the word "racism" to include religeous prejudice - and sexism as well - and you know it. And it really is not permitted to preach hatred of all Muslims on this board. If you don't agree, I will let you explain it to SYSOPS. IF you are going to oppose all Muslims, I will become one. Just as I started going to Sinagogue when the only Jew on my illegally segregated ship was given a bad time. [St Paul says all Christians are "Jewish by adoption" so I figured it was true enough]. When Samuel Huntington attacked all Catholics and particularly Spanish speaking Catholics in May, I began singing with a Spanish language Catholic choir. I do not do well with religeous intolerance, and I am the wrong person to argue with about it. Either treat each individual as they diserve - or take it somewhere else. This board is for serious discussion. And no honest discussion can put all Muslims in one basket any more than it could put all Christians - or all athiests - in one backet. There is NOTHING you can say that is true of them all - and ASSUMING there is by definition is to pre judge them.
 
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elcid    is still in practice in the Islamic world.   7/2/2004 6:16:29 AM
Yes and no. I know something about it. I will talk about it IF there is a consensus that Islam is not evil and that not all Muslims are the enemy. And technically, slavery is still practice in the USA. It is legal for prisoners, and we tolerate it in some other forms (see Russian organized crime practice - I can get you a Russian prostitute in 15 minutes in some cities - and she is likely a true slave with no options.] This is an ugly subject, and there are few countries or societies without a trace of it. The problem in the Islamic world is geograhically limited- which implies it isn't Islam that is the problem. [They don't do it in Indonesia like in North Africa, for example.]
 
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elcid    which rule of Islam is being violated by terrorists   7/2/2004 6:27:35 AM
I already answered this in part. Read more carefully. I was formally educated in Islam, by the way, as part of my military training. And I have made it my business to investigate Islamic denominations. I am writing from what might be called a "mainstream" or "traditional" point of view. 1. Terrorists commit suicide. This is explicitly forbidden, and soundly condemned, at several points in Islamic holy writ. 2. Terrorists deliberately attack innocent people who are "protected persons" if I can transfer a Hague term to Islam. There are several cases of this. All women and children are to be protected, for example, for reasons you can probably assume are common to your own beliefs. But more than that, all Christians, Jews and Muslims are protected, even men of miltiary age. The attacks we have seen often have killed "people of the book" and even other Muslims. This as a deliberate act is soundly opposed, at several points, in formal religeous literature and in theology as taught in most of Islamic history. 3. Terrorists often, if not usually, engage in practices forbidden to all devout Muslims. When the Grand Mosque was stormed (it had been siezed) the Saudi's found wiskey bottles, cigars, and pornography. Whatever those people were, they were not devout Muslims. Muslims are called to abstain from certain things, including explicitly alcohol and illicit sexual activities. They are also called to be polite, and to serve their neighbors, exactly in the sense Jesus meant it, not only because what Jesus said is sacred to Muslims, but also because of what is in their other holy literature (there are basically two books, the Quran and the "Life" - more or less a biography of Muhammad - which in spite of the fact you don't hear about it is more important than the Quran in terms of a source of ideas. You are supposed to imitate Muhammad, as a Christian is supposed to imitate Christ.] Basically, a radical is one who does not behave as Jesus or Muhammad would. If they do something that likely would get Muhammad to order their execution, they are probably terrorists.
 
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