AK is right ElCid. This is fanatism and religious discrimination. Not racism.

In muslim countries unlike Europe, slaves always had legal rights. And after becoming free ex-slaves were in every sense equal to others. All of the Mamluk Sultans were ex-slaves. Many of the Ottoman Grand Viziers were ex-slaves. And slavery is abolished in Ottoman Empire before USA. Sudan (and other states that still have slavery) in every sense is still living in the Medieval age. By the way Sudan was the main slave buying center of the British Empire at 19th Century.

PS with respect for your "sister in law". I empathize. I had a brother in law once who rode with a motorcycle gang. He was a "good-guy" just loved to ride scooters and wear colorful headscarves and leather, and hangout in Biker Bars, drink beer and raise hell. Damned if he didn't get mistaken for a "bad-guy" and got himself capped by a scared Cop who thought he was going for a gun! Stuff Happens. On Watch ---------------------------------------- Is that mean, OnWatch suggesting that all Muslims should or could be killed because they share with the same religion with terrorists. If that is so; and if this is not facism, what is facism?

>>Erdogan spent 1 year in a Turkish prison because of this poem. --ilpars<< Actually it was 10 months for inciting religious hatred I believe -- but who's counting? I've heard those Turk Jails are country clubs! >>He later said that his poem was alegoric. They understood it wrongly. --i;pard<< Just a poor misunderstood Islamist? Better Think Again Friends! ANALYSIS 2nd. December 2002 TURKEY'S NEW GOVERNMENT: RIDING THE BRUSSELS GRAVY TRAIN? New government: Pro…What? The AKP (Justice and Development Party) won a huge victory in Turkey's elections at the beginning of November. Now people are beginning to ask seriously what do they really believe in? On the 8th November, Le Monde was obviously non-plussed, its headline asked "Islamist, democrat or conservative - What is the AKP?". Such confusion is apparent in Turkish journals as well. Nobody, it seems, knows. The question is, what is in fact going on in the mind of Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the banned leader of the AKP? What does he believe and how can people find out? By H. E. Sener Yet it is impossible to answer these questions without reference to the history of "political Islam" in Turkey. One must understand that the AKP was born out of the Fazilet Party (Virtue Party) as was a more moderate party the Saadet Party (Happiness Party). The Virtue Party itself grew out of the ashes of the strongly pro-Islamist and illegal Refah Party (Welfare Party). To understand the AKP we must first turn to the Refah Party. The principle of secularism and forces against it Since modern Turkey's foundation it has had, at its core the principle of a secular state leading to some of the more obscure rules in Turk society, such as the ban on headscarves and beards in the administration. However the forces of political Islam have for years fought against such ideologies. When Refah became dominant party in the National Assembly in 1996, the same questions were asked of it as are being asked today of the AKP. It's ideology of "national view" (voix nationale, milli görüs) was considered a threat to the founding principles of Turkish Republic - such as the rule of law, the secularism etc. Time passed, and it failed to quell the fears. In response, the Turkish Constitutional Court declared that its activities were contrary to the principle of secularism and shut it down. After the judgement, the leaders of Refah applied to the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) claiming that this was a violation of article 11 of European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR) which guarantees the freedom of assembly. Refah's leader at the time, Necmettin Erbakan, did this despite being very sceptical about the "European" institutions due to their "Christian" character. Erbakan was confident of a positive result, however, the case was found against Refah The European Court decided that the Refah had "infringed the principle of secularism" due to it holding that the "plurality of legal system introducing discrimination on the grounds of belief", of "applying sharia to the Muslim community", and of "jihad (holy war) as a political method." Funnily enough after this decision Erbakan returned to his sceptic position over Europe. So what was the main position of political Islam in Turkey as regard to Europe? There was a strong scepticism towards Europe stemming from the religious fear which asserts that the EU was "Christians' Club" and Turkey should reject it in order not to be assimilated by it. Rusen Çakir's, in his influential book, "Process of Westernistation (sic.) of Islamist" quotes Arif Emre's, one of Erbakan's the right-hand men, "In the event of our entrance to the European Community, it would need (...) a second conquest of Istanbul." AK Party as the centre of pragmatism Suppose that you have political power (but not especially military power) to spread your ideology, an ideology that is contrary to the very principles of the State. Would you really implement them explicitly, for instance, as Erbakan and Refah did? Would you really take a clear-cut negative position against national, and also international institutions? Can we believe that Erdogan will be foolish enough to put into practice - if he really has not changed - a kind of fundamentalism? I contend that, if you are radically against the very principles of the State, and if you have no military power base, but political, you should be in conformity with the system as much as possible, to survive in the political arena. It is quite clear that Erdogan was as radical as Erbakan. Just read his radical Islamic poem: "The mosques are our barracks / the domes are our helmets / the minarets are our bayonets / and the faithful is our soldiers." We can find many other examples but I think that this shows that he was certainly Islamist. However, today his position is claimed to be Pro-European, pro-American, to sum up, pro-Western. Has he really changed? It is impossible to answer it explicitly,

Excellent article OnWatch thanks. I was looking for this in English. Too long to translate. But first some answers. "Actually it was 10 months for inciting religious hatred I believe -- but who's counting? I've heard those Turk Jails are country clubs! " International Human Rights organization have very different opinion about Turkish Prisons. I believe they are exagreating but surely conditions are not fine either. "Just a poor misunderstood Islamist? " He said he misunderstood. Of course he was lying. He is a populist, a pragmatist. He say anything to have power. I believe even his being Islamist is a lie. He used Islamists to gain power. ----------------------------------------------- Now several important parts that I want to point out in the article. First one is about the US administration support to AKP. Such a message had already been given to the US administration months ago. Interestingly, although Erdogan was supporting the idea that "IMF cannot direct our economy", after his visit to the USA in 2001, he changed his mind and began to respect IMF to the so-called extent of "safeguarding national interests." His following words reveals the fact that they got the consent of the USA administration: "USA is the country who knows best that we are not pro-Islamist." The USA's positive reactions to the victory of AKP also confirm this assumption. As you can see the writer has the same opinion with me that Erdogan is indeed America's man. He is a part of US plan to support modernist Islamists against fundementalism. Secularists are too independent minded for US administration. Even latest Bush's highly enthusiastic support of Turkey's entrance to EU is showing their open support. --------------------------------------------- That will be too long for my liking. Long posts have lesser percentages to be read and understood. And it is better to examine article part by part.

Is that mean, OnWatch suggesting that all Muslims should or could be killed because they share with the same religion with terrorists. Don't be stupid Illpar, you know I suggested no such thing -- and I am not "mean"! What that sad story relates, is that sometimes, even in the USA, one is judged, rightly or wrongly, by appearences and the company one keeps. Had my brother in law not associated himself with a criminal element in unsavory venues, and remained sober, he probably wouldn't have been shot when he was reaching for his wallet after being told to put his hands up. Those were behavioral things that he could have controlled, but he didn't. Just as Islam has the power to clean itself up, but has failed so far to do so. When and if the muslim terrorists deliver the next WMD to the USA, more American people will become less tolerant of an Islam that threatens them and their children. At the Airports we may even begin to profile Middle Eastern looking men with wires sticking out of their shoes versus frisking little ol' American grannies. Fewer Muslims will be allowed to immigrate into the USA. More will be deported. Credentials and appearence will be factors in assesing threats represented by an Islam teeming with Holy War terrorists. We may even require preemptive processes & procedures like bugging mosques, mullahs and Louie Farrakan. That's the STUFF that can HAPPEN illcat! On Watch

Damn. And I thought the US legal system got bogged down from petty trials. I take it they don't get any decent freedom of the press there, then? Or is it more like, "you have the right to print or publish what you want. But we retain the right to incarcerate you if we don't like it" ?.

He just have read his poem in one of his public speeches. The speech was against secular laws of Turkey. But Turkish laws are very strict about secularism.

"But Turkish laws are very strict about secularism " Correction were very strict about secularism. In the content of making our laws more suitable to European laws (which was a condition that EU has demanded), the penalties were lowered. If he read the poem now, he would not be punished by state. But if someone sued him for being offended by the poem and won; Erdogan should have paid him an amount found suitable for the court. Or something like this. I could not followed the latest changes in the law. Every month some law are changed for EU.

Genetically the population is Celtic - slaves from Ireland. Culturally, they are very norse.