Don't you think Muslims should respect Islam before we do? The fact that prisoners were mistreated (I disagree) doesn't deny the fact that worse atrocities occurred at the prison prior to our arrival, and the fact that days before the story erupted, four American bodies were draped over a bridge.

The original starter of this topic was a skirmisher. He just opened the Pandora's box and disappeared. We are not still discussing the original topic. Maybe we should have closed this one and start a new one but discussion got a high speed and it is late to restart now. Maybe unseen topic is now something like "Not every Muslim is the enemy." or "Terrorism got nothing to do with religion." Of course these are my opinions.

>>"Terrorism got nothing to do with religion."--Illpard's topic re-starter<< Of Course it does! Terrorism thrives on, in and through Islam! It's fighters are muslim fighters! From the weapons and the Jihadi's hidden in it's Mosques, to the Charity drives to fund al Queda et al! This is the crux of the issue! Americans not trusting or respecting Islam is the product of the Islamic adherents murderous behaviors not it's benevolence. NO IT IS NOT the Christians, Jews, or Buddists who murdered 3000 on 9-11 ! Yes, it is convienient for Muslims to label those who expose Mainstream Islam's malevolent edifice as a "Fascist". The truth remains that the mainstream of Islam is polluted by the perversion of Islamofascism dancing in the dust of 9-11. And unless & until that poison is removed by mainstream Islam and it's leadership, Islam must be considered an enemy of America. No, not every muslim is an active bomb-belted terrorist but the organization he subcribes too, and supports, provides aid & comfort to the enemies of Western civilization. Shoot even the Turk Generals know that! On Watch

The truths: 1. It is the fundementalists not mainstream is responsible for 9/11. 2. It is the men who committed that crime. In spite of their religion forbid them to commit suicide or forbid to kill unarmed civilians. 3. Terrorism had always political roots not religious. AQ is imitating Hashasis (Assassins of Alamut) which were also a political organization, wrapped in religious fervor. 4. Terrorists took their tactical terrorist background from Communist terrorist organisations. They did not invent it. 5. Men who are terrorists and who are supporting terrorism are the responsibles for the crime. They must be the ones who pays the price not innocent other Muslims. Saying "Islam is evil" is untrue, pre-judgemental and therefore facist.

The crescent: I stand corrected. The Danish flag IS a crusader banner - can't change it, God gave it to us on a crusade, so we are stuck with it. I've heard something about the raid on Iceland. Funny thing, though, genetically the Icelandic population is NOT norse, but Irish Celtic. On Watch: I'm not sure what You aim to achieve.

The World Health Organization called the spreading polio outbreak in Nigeria “a grave public health threat” in their October 22, 2003 alert. “Rejection of the polio vaccination campaign in Nigeria -- especially in the Muslim north -- is the major impediment to completing the 16-year, $3 billion global effort to eradicate the paralyzing disease.” Washington Post, March 2004 (Incidentally, the $3 billion dollars comes from donations, not the UN budget, or the illegal “Food for Oil” monies confiscated by corrupt UN officials) What prevents mothers from protecting their children from a dread disease? muslim clerics. I also know of an Indonesian woman, an Australian immigrant, who had to be physically rescued by her family after being nearly beaten to death by her muslim husband. Why was she beaten? She continued to demonstrate Western tendencies after having become her husband’s property through marriage. Why did her family have to rescue her? Because neither local government or friends and neighbors were willing to contest the husbands right under islamic rule to kill her if he so chose. The idea that identifying islam as a contributor, albeit passive contributor, to terrorism as bigotry is nonsense. It is just reality. As the two examples above point out, islamic culture offers no alternative to obeying mullahs. I would be guilty of bigotry if I said islam was wrong because the prophet was a phony. I never have said that. I would be guilty if I said Nigerians are preventing their children from being inoculated because their skin color is different than mine. I would be guilty if I said that woman was beaten because Indonesians are cruel because they have dark eyes, and all dark eyed people are cruel. The only thing these events have in common is that religion, as practiced, prevents them from speaking out. Want another example? Iran has announced it will continue its quest for nuclear capability. Why? Peaceful energy needs? From a country that routinely burns off the natural gas excesses that equal 4 nuclear plants? Or is it jihad? What do Persians have in common with Arabs or Nigerians or Indonesians? islam! And the funding of terrorism in the name of islam. Another example? Beheadings in Iraq. Whether it be a Westerner, Korean, Turk, or Iraqi, no simple “peaceful” muslim has lifted a finger to help prevent the loss of these innocent lives. Is the fear of islamic terrorists from other countries 100% effective in preventing any Iraqi from informing on the whereabouts of captives? Or is it fear of being “out-of-step” with islamic culture that prevents the man in the street from fighting terrorists? Ilpars says that it is the men who commit the crime, in spite of their religion professing the crime to be wrong. I say the greater crime is islamic clerics preaching violence, terror, and death in spite of a religion ilspars maintains is peaceful. I do not “prejudge” as elcid suggests. My opinions are the result of 40 years observation. Terror is supported by islam two ways: muslim clerics preach that violence, suicide, terror, mutilation, murder and mayhem are not only acceptable, but required of true believers. Those muslims not actively participating in terror, close their eyes and ears to the crimes committed in the name of their “peaceful” religion. Until islam as a culture cleanses its own house, it must take responsibility for both its active and passive support of terrorism. For it’s support of slavery. For it’s exposing its children to disease, and for treating women as property, among other things. Muddying the waters with examples of Turkeys singular secular fight against islamic terror, using Thousand years old comparisons of behavior, or claiming religious bigotry is inaccurate and disingenuous. If a Roman Catholic priest preached such hate from the pulpit, he would be excommunicated. Gads, today in Virginia, Episcopalian churches are threatened by their diocese with denial of funding and expulsion for not accepting homosexual clerics. Its time to call a shovel a shovel, and a spade a spade. No amount of political correctness, warm huggy fuzzy “everyone will get along if we just talk about it “ bankrupt liberal thinking will change the facts.

>>1. It is the fundementalists not mainstream is responsible for 9/11.<< Muslims and their enablers( financiers, Imans-mullahs, handlers, etc etc etc) in mainstream Islam are responsible for 9-11 >>2. It is the men who committed that crime. In spite[because] of their religion forbid them to commit suicide or forbid to kill unarmed civilians.<< It is exactly that Islamist poison which pollutes mainstream Islam. To say that Islam is pure while it's proponents murder innocents in it's name, and Islam's leaders condone the murder is vaccuous at best! >>3. Terrorism had always political roots not religious. AQ is intimitading Hashasis (Assassins of Alamut) which were also a political organization.<< Islamist terrorism is underpinned by religion and it is within the mainstream of Islam that overt and covert support for the Jihadi's thrives. And that is probably why secularity (separation of church & state) and Western alignment was the path chosen by the Turk Generals. 4. Terrorists took their tactical terrorist background from Communist terrorist organisations. They did not invent it. Gee I thought the muslim "Assassins" of Arabia, Iran, Syria, and the Phillipines predated the communists - is it any wonder I can't take you seriously Illpart? Beyond the Islamic predisposition to murder and terrorize the Infidel -- yes the Socialists/Commies did and still do provide tactical support, weaponry and propaganda for the IslamoFascists. Some things never change... >>5. Men who are terrorists and who are supporting terrorism are the responsibles for the crime. They must be the ones who pays the price not innocent other Muslims.<< Couldn't agree more! The problem is that those 'Islamo Terror Fish' are swimming in the same cesspool with the so called "innocent Islamo muslims". In fact, they're oftimes attached knowingly and willingly at the hip. Try as we might we Americans can't always make an omlet without breaking a few eggs. Better would be that all those hypothetical innocent Muslims weed out the thugs and assassins from within -- and speak in a unified, loud, clear, and unambiguous voice to their wayward kindred that ISLAM is united against their trechery. I won't hold my breath! >>Saying "Islam is evil" is untrue, pre-judgemental and therefore facist << What I said was: Islam is poisoned by the Islamofascists that THRIVE within it. And If Islam is to be respected, it needs to get on with the busness of cleaning it's own house, before it comes crumbling down around them. On Watch -- Let's Roll

I would like to see Ilpars address the issues that appleciderus raises: I have seen countless stories and reports on how Muslim women in many, many areas of the world have been mistreated/abused, and/or treated as property or third-class human beings, almost always using some part of local Muslim belief or edicts as an excuse. This is far more than just a problem with a few 'fundalmentalists'. When a religion is applied in a certain way a significant minority of the time (i.e. abuse, justification for murder, discrimination, etc) then it frankly does not matter what the actual tenets of said religion state -- reality *always* trumps dogma. NewGuy

Ilpars, I have to give you credit for continuing to talk to OW and his little clique. There's some signs of intelligence there but its too overshadowed by his xenophobia, extremism, racism and hatred for me to ever treat anything he says with any seriousness (entertaining though!). Just giving you my support and letting you know that not all Americans are as nasty, self-centered and egotistical as he is.

I am sure this point has been made. Americans are respecting Islam...especially those serving over there. The problem is Islamist don't respect Islam. Maybe you should clean house before pointing out how someone elses is dirty!?!? Vapid